Victim of Authorised Push Payment Scam - Help!

sgabriel

Hi, all.

Early March I was victim of what's know and classified as an Authorised Push Payment scam. On the website Gumtree, I had purchased a camera from a seller, who turned out to be a scammer. The individual took £500 by bank transfer and then cut off contact. I'm well aware of the risk I took and at this level, and I'm fully accepting liability.

I reported this to my bank (Co-Op Bank), who were very verbal and clear that it’s likely I won’t see the money again, as usually in these situations the bank account would be emptied and the scammer would have moved on. I accepted I wouldn’t see the money again, but then Co-Op contacted me back in a couple of days and confirmed that Nationwide (the recipient’s bank) had confirmed they had seized the money from the fraudster’s account and are now investigating it. Great news! They told me the bank had 20 working days to investigate before Co-Op could chase again.

I waited, not hearing a word, then on the 20th day I phoned the bank, who had heard nothing from Nationwide. They chased Nationwide, who responded that day that the fraudster had been given back access to the funds, and had used the excuse that the money was for a purchase of Bitcoin. I do not deal with Bitcoin, nor do I have any association with it. At this moment I was angry and frustrated that this person had been given access to my money. Co-Op asked for evidence that the purchase had been made for a camera, to which I sent them several forms of evidence - Nationwide then ‘reopened' the case.

More working days pass by and now the 16th of April I am told that the investigation at Nationwide had been escalated because now the fraudster is claimed them, themselves, are a victim of fraud, and in turn, I was scammed into this person’s account, and they were scammed - still mentioning something about bitcoin.


Today (24th April), I hear from the Co-Op fraud team that the investigation from Nationwide’s fraud team is that they will not transfer any of the money back. The conclusion they have came to is the story that the fraudster has told them, they he was a victim too.

What I do not understand is how this person only realised they were a victim of fraud themselves the second time the investigation was opened up on new evidence. I’m at a very frustrating road here, as Nationwide will not talk to me directly - I have managed to log a complaint with Nationwide, although I’m not a customer - but my worry is that their decision will be the same as the decision made in the fraud investigation.

I do not understand how a person can be scammed into sending £500, and when we actually make contact with the individual who’s account it belongs to - the decision is in the favour of that person! I’m extremely upset and starting to lose track of my rights, and who’s liability stands where. If this individual is indeed a victim of fraud themselves and their bank account has been compromised (which I’m still highly sceptical of), then where are my rights?

I am waiting on the complaint decision at Nationwide before escalating this to the Financial Ombudsman, however I’m worried that the Ombudsman takes ‘months’ to even assign a case. I also raised this to Action Fraud on the same day I raised with my bank, but they've chosen not to investigate. I have this person's bank details, and a possible name, and that's all.

Any advice? Similar experience? - Sorry that this is so long!

Chino

sgabriel wrote: »

then where are my rights?

You have the rght to pursue this indvidual through the courts for breach of contract. If you don't know the individual's address then perhaps a Norwich Pharmacal order could be used to force Nationwide to disclose it. Whether the address it holds is genuine is another matter.

What to Do If I've Been Scammed

Terry_Towelling

Probably splitting hairs here but I don't see this as an APP scam. You were paying for a camera and the seller hasn't sent it to you. I take it Gumtree doesn't have any dispute resolution process. I suspect that the bank's obligations to you are different in this sort of situation but you have been ripped off by the seller and, as Chino says, if you can get hold of him, you can drag him through the courts.

sgabriel

When questioned by Nationwide, the recipient came up with an excuse that wasn't related to a camera in any way. Therefore the bank classified this as push payment as, by definition, I was convinced to send money for an item that did not exist

sgabriel

This is helpful. Thank you very much. I do not know the person's address, but the concensus seems to be Nationwide see this person's account as a genuine account, so likely details they have on this person may actually be genuine or at least trackable

dj1471

It's entirely possible the recipient was a victim too - the scammer arranges to buy some bitcoin, then sets up the scam to get you to pay for them. Scammer is long gone with their essentially-untraceable bitcoin, now you and the middleman are left with a very tricky dispute.

Migster

I was thinking the same as above. The Nationwide customer agreed to sell £500 of bitcoin to a 3rd party. The 3rd party then scams you and gets you to send £500 to the Nationwide account. The Nationwide customer releases the bitcoin as he has received the funds as expected. You then raise a dispute, but get knocked back by Nationwide, as their customer hasn't acted improperly.

18cc

If you were fully aware of the risks involved as you said then you presumably are fully aware that paying by bank transfer is pretty much the same as putting £500 worth of use notes into an envelope and posting it to the seller y

your recourse is to take the seller to the small claims court - this means of course that you need to find out their identity

so in a way it is worse paying by bank transfer as at least if you had posted the money you would have known their name and address

sgabriel

If you were fully aware of the risks involved as you said then you presumably are fully aware that paying by bank transfer is pretty much the same as putting £500 worth of use notes into an envelope and posting it to the seller y

your recourse is to take the seller to the small claims court - this means of course that you need to find out their identity

so in a way it is worse paying by bank transfer as at least if you had posted the money you would have known their name and address

There are many scenarios that I could compare this to and favour the other, but I'm seeking helpful advice

sgabriel

I was thinking the same as above. The Nationwide customer agreed to sell £500 of bitcoin to a 3rd party. The 3rd party then scams you and gets you to send £500 to the Nationwide account. The Nationwide customer releases the bitcoin as he has received the funds as expected. You then raise a dispute, but get knocked back by Nationwide, as their customer hasn't acted improperly.

This could be possible. I suppose what's frustrating and hard to understand is I have become a victim of their customer's liability. Being a victim via a proxy that neither bank wish to take responsibility for. It's seemingly a very clever scam that leaves no parties interested in finding out who the scammer is.

18cc

I thought the helpful advice was pretty clear.. 1. never pay by bank transfer t2. since you have this time the way to get your money bank is to go to the small claims court