Wells-Next-The-Sea PCN: Left car park after 13 mins to get change, returned and paid all-day fee

Anonymous_Forum_User

Another newbie here, just wanting to clarify my best course of action...

I've recieved the classic 60/100 PCN after parking at Wells-next-the-sea harbour car park in a hire car on 8th March. Other posters have commented that they have a 10 minute timeslot for buying a ticket which is apparently (poorly) indicated at the bottom of the sign by the meter - I didn't see that at the time.

I initially pulled into the carpark at 13:28 but as I didn't have the correct change we moved off at 13:40 - as per their date stamped photos - then returning and paying £4.50 for an all-day ticket (with numberplate) at 13:54 - which luckily I still have!

I received a letter from the hire company - dated 21/03 - stating that they'd been informed of a fine and would pass on my details and charge me a £30 administration fee in the next 14 days (:shocked:). Their letter gave no further information and stated that they could not assist me in appealing. As I didn't know what this pertained to I waited to receive the next letter in which time they took £30 from my credit card on 04/04.

I've now recieved a PCN notice to driver/hirer from ce-service (Civil enforcement, listed with BPA) with an issuing date of 11/04. I was initially going to appeal in good faith to explain the situtation and that I had bought a ticket but having read the forum here it seems that this is essentially a scam and that I should take a stronger line.

I've read the advice on MSE and on the forum here and I think I'm in a strong position but I just want to get advice before submitting my appeal using the template on the website.

1) Do I make a technical case that they've written to me more than 15 days after the incident? or does this reset as they had to get my details from the hire company first?

2) Or, should I appeal on the grounds of 'mitigating circumstances' and explain that I returned and bought a ticket? I can send them a photo of the ticket as evidence.

3) Or will they consider this a secondary 'parking event' and still fine me for the first 13 minute stay? - do I have grounds to appeal on the basis that the fine is disproportionate for a 3 minute overstay on a 10 minute ticket purchasing window?

4) do I make all cases at the same time?

I'm also confused as to whether I should appeal now or wait until later in the 28 day period if I believe I have a genuine claim?

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Then, do I need to wait until I receive a response before writing to the hire company to ask to be reimbursed the £30 'admin fee', presuming my appeal is successful? It's less clear how to go about this.

Many thanks, the advice and help here are invaluable!

Coupon-mad

I've now recieved a PCN notice to driver/hirer from ce-service (Civil enforcement, listed with BPA) with an issuing date of 11/04.

You simply use the NON FLEET version of hirer/lessee appeal (one of the 3 links near the bottom of the NEWBIES thread).

CEL will cancel.

Then you can see if the lease firm will refund the £30, once you have the cancellation.

Anonymous_Forum_User

Aha, ok. So, to clarify, it appears that ce have an additional 21 days to write to me from the date that they are passed my details (as driver?) from the hiring company. Avis wrote to me on the 21/03 (not recieved until a couple of days later), so presuming ce recieved my information on that date, they had until the (10?)11/04 to write to me.

Am I correct in asserting that this notice should have included copies of the documents listed in 13.2 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012

As these documents (notice to keeper + statements that I was the hirer) were not included (and the 21 days has now elapsed) I can now use the template drafted by Edna Basher to challenge that they have not fulfilled their obligations in issuing me the parking charge?

Have I got that right?

Or, otherwise, am I better to argue that as this was a paid parking and I have evidence of purchasing a valid parking ticket for the 24 hour period of that day (expiring at midnight), that this does not constitute a penalty and therefore the charge is disproportionate to the loss caused?

KeithP

Your first assertion is the right one, except for one small, but very important point...

Avis will not have passed driver details to CEL.
Avis have no way of knowing who was driving at the time.
All they know is the name of the hirer, and it is the name of the hirer that they have given to CEL.

Yes, use Edna Basher's appeal.

Coupon-mad

You have got that right and the link I told you about, gives you the words.

Anonymous_Forum_User

Letter set up. The only minor niggle is that although Avis wrote to me on the 21/03, I don't know when the "21 days beginning with the day after that on which the documents required by paragraph 13(2) are given to the creditor" began - POFA 14.3. It must have been before the 11/04 which is the date that I was issued with the 'Notice to hirer/driver PCN' so should I wait until 21 days from then has elapsed (02/05/19) before submitting my appeal?

Coupon-mad

You only have 21 days (not 28) to appeal, from the date on the NTH so don't appeal too late. CEL will not be able to put this right and I predict they WILL cancel.

Anonymous_Forum_User

Aha, good point. Interestingly the reverse of their NTH states I have 28 days to appeal. Sending now. Will report back.

The_Deep

No-one has mentioned Bye Laws.

This is the third PCN which I have seen here in the last 2-3 weeks. The land is covered by bye laws and the normal contract law scams do not apply if the scammers do not know the name of the driver. So always refer to those involved as either "the driver" or "the keeper" .

In Land covered by bye laws, schedule 4 of POFA holding a keeper liable does not apply so get you MP involved.

Anonymous_Forum_User

So does this mean my appeal is invalid? Should I still submit it or does that risk putting me in a worse position?

Coupon-mad

Oh for Goodness sake, no.

Byelaws are irrelevant to this discussion, carry on.