Parking permits penalising pollutants

Markocam

We are currently charged £90 per year for our Residents Parking Permit - OK so far.

However, Kingston Council are proposing a Traffic Management Order which would result in an astronomical rise in permit charges for anyone who doesn't have an electric or hybrid car:
I cant post a link but see kingston.gov.uk and add
/downloads/200319/draft_traffic_management_orders

The relevant reference is KingMap0023

The charges could increase to £400 per year for some people, especially with older cars. Our average Honda CRV charges would increase to £210 per year.

While I agree that something needs to be done about pollution, penalising a choice few families cannot be the right thing.

We have until 11th April to make our views known, but I would like to know if anyone has had any experience with something similar and successfully got their point over. A legal precedent would be great.

If only I could afford a bigger house with a drive then I could avoid these charges altogether and have as many diesel guzzlers as I like

Aylesbury_Duck

Markocam wrote: »

While I agree that something needs to be done about pollution, penalising a choice few families cannot be the right thing.

And there's the problem. Everyone agrees something has to be done, as long as it's not done to them. Rather than viewing it as a penalty, view it as encouragement to consider a different type of vehicle when you next change cars. Yes it will hit you in the pocket in the short and perhaps medium term, but ill health will cost you a lot more in the long term. In your case, an extra £120 a year is a small sum in the context of the total cost of the car ownership.

I think it's the right thing to do. People come up with all sorts of reasons for not replacing short journeys with walking or cycling and (rightly) point out that public transport simply isn't available at the right times or places to make that a viable alternative for longer journeys. In other words, the more palatable alternatives have been dismissed so what's left?

AdrianC

This shouldn't be any surprise. It's north of a decade since the borough right next door introduced CO2-emissions-based pricing for parking permits.

https://www.richmondandtwickenhamtimes.co.uk/news/1003214.the-facts-how-much-will-motorists-pay/

As for "have as many diesel guzzlers as you like", have you remembered that Kingston borough starts less than two miles from the imminent ULEZ?

Markocam

Aylesbury_Duck wrote: »

And there's the problem. Everyone agrees something has to be done, as long as it's not done to them. Rather than viewing it as a penalty, view it as encouragement to consider a different type of vehicle when you next change cars. Yes it will hit you in the pocket in the short and perhaps medium term, but ill health will cost you a lot more in the long term. In your case, an extra £120 a year is a small sum in the context of the total cost of the car ownership.

I think it's the right thing to do. People come up with all sorts of reasons for not replacing short journeys with walking or cycling and (rightly) point out that public transport simply isn't available at the right times or places to make that a viable alternative for longer journeys. In other words, the more palatable alternatives have been dismissed so what's left?

Yes, I may be able to afford the extra charges, but many will find it compromises their car ownership. Hybrid and Electric cars are out of many people's price bracket, and in the case of plug-in are often impractical (especially if you need to pay for on street parking with no charging points nearby)

Anyway, my point was more about penalising the few. An appropriate levy on all diesel and petrol vehicle owners rather than the few would be fairer perhaps.

DrEskimo

You could argue that there is a need for better public charging infrastructure for people who do not have the ability for home chargers.

Looking at Zap-Map, you have about 9 posts, but the overwhelming majority are slow chargers (3.6kW). A larger adoption of EVs in the area would mean these chargers will be occupied for many hours and it may prove hard to practically own an EV and charge it reliably.

If their were more fast chargers, and even rapids, then EV ownership would be much more realistic. But of course they won't install them until there is a demand....

That being said, I think as above, the harder case to make is why you need to own a private car at all.

Markocam

AdrianC wrote: »

This shouldn't be any surprise. It's north of a decade since the borough right next door introduced CO2-emissions-based pricing for parking permits.

As for "have as many diesel guzzlers as you like", have you remembered that Kingston borough starts less than two miles from the imminent ULEZ?

Interesting, I didn't know that - will check out the details, thanks.
Btw my 'guzzlers' comment was a rather sarcastic implication that if you have somewhere off street to park, then by the council's implication vehicle pollution is not your problem!

Aylesbury_Duck

Markocam wrote: »

Anyway, my point was more about penalising the few. An appropriate levy on all diesel and petrol vehicle owners rather than the few would be fairer perhaps.

I agree it's a blunt tool and as you say, if you have a driveway you can avoid the charge altogether, although it might discourage people from owning more cars than they can accommodate on their property. All you can do is put your points to the consultation but I suspect they've already considered alternatives and discounted them. They don't have the authority to levy all vehicle owners so this might be the best they can do.

Markocam

DrEskimo wrote: »

You could argue that there is a need for better public charging infrastructure for people who do not have the ability for home chargers.

Looking at Zap-Map, you have about 9 posts, but the overwhelming majority are slow chargers (3.6kW). A larger adoption of EVs in the area would mean these chargers will be occupied for many hours and it may prove hard to practically own an EV and charge it reliably.

If their were more fast chargers, and even rapids, then EV ownership would be much more realistic. But of course they won't install them until there is a demand....

That being said, I think as above, the harder case to make is why you need to own a private car at all.

Thanks for that, lots of valid points
btw we managed without a car for many years, however now we have kids there are so many reasons we need a car on hand. Maybe when they are a bit older we can go car free again...

DrEskimo

Markocam wrote: »

Thanks for that, lots of valid points
btw we managed without a car for many years, however now we have kids there are so many reasons we need a car on hand. Maybe when they are a bit older we can go car free again...

It's worth noting that the document mentions hybrids, but not specifically plug-in ones?

There are plenty of older non plug-in hybrids for reasonably prices, from the likes of Toyota and Lexus. Something to think about if/when you starting contemplating a change of car (although I suspect running your current one with the £120 extra for the permit still works out much cheaper!).

AdrianC

Markocam wrote: »

Yes, I may be able to afford the extra charges, but many will find it compromises their car ownership. Hybrid and Electric cars are out of many people's price bracket, and in the case of plug-in are often impractical (especially if you need to pay for on street parking with no charging points nearby)

Anyway, my point was more about penalising the few. An appropriate levy on all diesel and petrol vehicle owners rather than the few would be fairer perhaps.

Woah, hold on...

Let's actually look at the prices in the consultation.
https://www.kingston.gov.uk/downloads/200319/draft_traffic_management_orders

Electric/Hybrid - £0
<120g/km - £90/yr
121-150g - £120/yr
151-185g - £160/yr
186-225g - £220/yr
225g+ - £350/yr
+£50/yr for diesel.

So the only way you get to your "£400/yr" is a 225+g/km diesel. Your "average" is 151-185g/km diesel (or 186-225g/km petrol for another tenner).

They're pretty damn filthy by even vaguely modern standards. The average new car hasn't been above 172g/km since records began in 2003, and fell below 150g/km in 2009. To put that into perspective, the average car on UK roads was just under 8yo in 2015, and the average age of scrapping was just under 14yrs. By mid 2015, it was only just over the 121g bottom of the penultimate paid band.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/new-car-carbon-dioxide-emissions
https://www.smmt.co.uk/industry-topics/sustainability/average-vehicle-age/

And how much is a resident permit before the introduction of this contentious CO2 pricing? £90/year currently...
https://www.kingston.gov.uk/info/200258/street_parking/600/parking_permits/8

So for the driver of about a 4yo only-just-cleaner-than-average petrol car, there's actually £0 increase. Anyway, looking on Autotrader, the cheapest used car that will see that £0 increase is <£700, there are more than 11,500 under £5k, and 55,000 under £10k.

There are 200+ hybrids <£5k, and nearly a thousand <£10k - and they'll see a £90/year decrease in the permit price...

...in a borough where the average flat costs £400k, the average property of all types £545k, and the average semi £670k.

Aylesbury_Duck

^^ excellent analysis. I'd have thanked it more than once if I could have done.