Question Regarding Tenants in Common Shares

getmore4less

If I understand correctly then the house was jointly owned by wife that predeceased dad who dies recently and there is a charge on the property.
(Edit to add jointly)

there was a case here recently(days ago) where Santander had a charge and this was causing problems

Putting that to one side.

You only need the death certificate for the wife to have her name removed and you can then go ahead with selling once you have the grant(probate) for your dad as the sole legal owner.

What you will need is the will for the wife and try to find out what happened to her estate when she died.

There may be solicitor records for when the house was bought that might help.

The default will be 50:50 but you need to see the will of the wife to establish what happened to her beneficial interest(may have been a life interest for dad)

Once you have the timelines for the beneficial interests you can look at the tax implications.

You can decide if you want to get involved with the wife estate as tracing the beneficial interest chain will depend on the order of deaths and their estates.

badger09

getmore4less wrote: »

If I understand correctly then the house was owned by wife that predeceased dad who dies recently and there is a charge on the property.

there was a case here recently(days ago) where Santander had a charge and this was causing problems

Putting that to one side.

You only need the death certificate for the wife to have her name removed and you can then go ahead with selling once you have the grant(probate) for your dad as the sole legal owner.

What you will need is the will for the wife and try to find out what happened to her estate when she died.

There may be solicitor records for when the house was bought that might help.

The default will be 50:50 but you need to see the will of the wife to establish what happened to her beneficial interest(may have been a life interest for dad)

Once you have the timelines for the beneficial interests you can look at the tax implications.

You can decide if you want to get involved with the wife estate as tracing the beneficial interest chain will depend on the order of deaths and their estates.

You have much more experience in this field than I do, but my understanding is not the same as yours:cool:

Mine is that house was owned as tenants in common by OP's dad & stepmum. Stepmum predeceased dad.

Stepmum's will would have left her (half?) share to one or more beneficiaries. Dad may or may not have been a beneficiary but that has not been established.

How then can executor of late dad's will dispose of an asset which may not have belonged to him?

chat01

Thank you for your condolences. I have corresponded with Dads solicitor and as a result of this I believe she has the Will there. She confirmed who the executors were and who the beneficiaries were.

Flugelhorn

there is a bit on this site https://www.aprilking.co.uk/what-we-do/estate-planning-services/probate/letters-of-administration/ about LOA where executors of a will cannot act. A relative can apply - can a stepchild do this? (hopefully yes if no-one else able / willing to do so?) - important that you remain in contact with the grandchildren

badger09

chat01 wrote: »

Thank you for your condolences. I have corresponded with Dads solicitor and as a result of this I believe she has the Will there. She confirmed who the executors were and who the beneficiaries were.

OK, so what did the will say should happen to stepmum's share of the property she owned with your dad?

chat01

The Will said that her estate should be split equally between her three children, however they have all died. When it was written i don't believe it made any 'allowance' for there to be 15 years between her and my Dad passing nor taking into account all three of her children passing before my Dad too. I have seen correspondence to say that my Dad approached his solicitor a few years ago for them to approach what was then two remaining spouses of her children to ask if they would 'forfeit' any benefit of her Will, this was with the intention of making sure that her share/half of the house passed to her blood family (two grandchildren) and not the spouses. He did this on the death of the third child. Nothing came of this unfortunately as one of the spouses died, and the other apparently replied to say he wanted what was due to him; this is the 'estranged' father of one of the grandchildren. So this grandchild won't receive her share, but will receive her uncles share as left all his estate to her in his will (he was the last of the three children to die). The other grandchild has lost both of his parents now, and neither of them made/left a Will, and so I guess he will receive his share via the rules of intestacy?

getmore4less

badger09 wrote: »

You have much more experience in this field than I do, but my understanding is not the same as yours:cool:

Mine is that house was owned as tenants in common by OP's dad & stepmum. Stepmum predeceased dad.

Stepmum's will would have left her (half?) share to one or more beneficiaries. Dad may or may not have been a beneficiary but that has not been established.

How then can executor of late dad's will dispose of an asset which may not have belonged to him?

I missed out jointly owned now corrected.

Legal and beneficial ownership are different legal ownership fell to the dad when his wife died.

Land_Registry

getmore4less wrote: »

I missed out jointly owned now corrected.

Legal and beneficial ownership are different legal ownership fell to the dad when his wife died.

As getmore4less states the legal and beneficial ownerships are two different things.

The legal ownership, which we register, is effectively the land and building and that can't be split into % shares e.g Mum has half the bricks and mortar or 4 of the 8 rooms to put it in very basic terms

The beneficial ownership, which the TIC/life interest (if there is one) can be split. A form A restriction may exist on the register to suggest that too. The beneficial ownership, to use the same basic terms, can be split as it's essentially the vale so £s and pence. £200 can be split £100k each once the property is converted into cash.

So on Mum's death the legal ownership passed to the surviving joint legal owner. Probate would not be needed for Mum as the legal ownership does not form part of her estate.

So you need probate for Dad in order to sell. Once sold you then have the £s and pence which can then be split as per their wishes/as you've already described.

Whilst we don't mention % shares in the register they may have mentioned them when any form A restriction was registered. But could have changed them later so a few places to check. You can contact us to see if any info exists but do bear in mind checking wider as well

That wider check should inc the deeds Santander are holding as they make have added details to their deeds. You may need probate before Santander will release them/the charge also

nom_de_plume

chat01 wrote: »

The Will said that her estate should be split equally between her three children, however they have all died. When it was written i don't believe it made any 'allowance' for there to be 15 years between her and my Dad passing nor taking into account all three of her children passing before my Dad too. I have seen correspondence to say that my Dad approached his solicitor a few years ago for them to approach what was then two remaining spouses of her children to ask if they would 'forfeit' any benefit of her Will, this was with the intention of making sure that her share/half of the house passed to her blood family (two grandchildren) and not the spouses. He did this on the death of the third child. Nothing came of this unfortunately as one of the spouses died, and the other apparently replied to say he wanted what was due to him; this is the 'estranged' father of one of the grandchildren. So this grandchild won't receive her share, but will receive her uncles share as left all his estate to her in his will (he was the last of the three children to die). The other grandchild has lost both of his parents now, and neither of them made/left a Will, and so I guess he will receive his share via the rules of intestacy?

Unless the Will specifically mentioned the spouses, any inheritance due to the children would default to the grandchildren. Any surviving spouses would have no entitlement.


Ignore this as it's not completely correct...

Keep_pedalling

nom_de_plume wrote: »

Unless the Will specifically mentioned the spouses, any inheritance due to the children would default to the grandchildren. Any surviving spouses would have no entitlement.

You can’t say that for certain as it depends on the sequence of deaths. If the widower’s wife died after her mother then anything left to her forms part of her estate and would need to be distributed as per her will not her mother’s.