Downstairs flat's extension not on title plan - illegal?

randomnumber

Hi all, I own a flat in a block with 4 others with one large communal garden.

My downstairs neighbour (ground floor flat) has a kitchen extension which doesn't feature on the land registry title plan. The extension has been there for some time - from before I bought my flat. And it is not on the publicly available list of planning permissions on my local council website (goes back 20 years).

Am I right that they needed permission from the other owners to extend their property into the communal garden and also planning permission from the council?

And does the fact it is missing from the title plan and the council's list of planning permissions mean they did not obtain the relevant permissions?

da_rule

They would have probably needed consent of the freeholder (depends on the exact terms of the lease) and they may have needed planning consent but it may depend on whether the development fell within permitted development. Either way, if a number of years have elapsed then they’re probably outside the planning enforcement window anyway.

Title plans don’t routinely get updated. They are usually based on the OS plan at the time of the initial transfer lease. They may be updated later if there is a boundary determination or a real need to update it.

davidmcn

Whose title plan are you looking at? It's the ground floor flat's title which will show the extent of what they own. If all you mean is you've got a title plan based on an old OS map (which hadn't yet been updated to show the extension) that doesn't mean much.

G_M

randomnumber wrote: »

Hi all, I own a flat in a block with 4 others with one large communal garden.
Please describe your own, and the other 4's, Titles, Title Plans, Leases, and lease Plans. What do the various leases include?

If the garden is communal, then I would expect the Title and Title Plan for each flat to show the extent of the garden. That should include (or perhaps exclude) the area of land on which the kitchen extension sits.

Do they?

My downstairs neighbour (ground floor flat) has a kitchen extension which doesn't feature on the land registry title plan.
* is it on the registered freehold Plan?
* is it on the registered downstairs leasehold Plan?
* is it on the downstairs lease Plan (note this is not the same as the registered leasehold Title at the Land Registry)?

The extension has been there for some time - from before I bought my flat. And it is not on the publicly available list of planning permissions on my local council website (goes back 20 years).
CouldPlanning consent have been granted earlier than 20 years ago? If so, there might be a paper record in the council archive store. You can request a search for this (probably at a cost).

Am I right that they needed permission from the other owners to extend their property into the communal garden
* perhaps. Perhaps not.
* consent would be needed from the freeholder. Who owns the freehold?
* if the land on which the extension was built is included in the leases of any of the other flats (eg right of access as it was communal) then yes, consent needed from the other leaseholders

and also planning permission from the council?
depending on the size of the original building, and the size of the extension, it might have fallen under 'permitted development' (google it!).
Additionally, if it's been there unchallanged for 4+ years, it's almost impossible for the council to enforce removal.

And does the fact it is missing from the title plan and the council's list of planning permissions mean they did not obtain the relevant permissions?

Not necessarily.

Much more investigation/information needed.

Tom99

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da_rule wrote: »

They would have probably needed consent of the freeholder (depends on the exact terms of the lease) and they may have needed planning consent but it may depend on whether the development fell within permitted development. Either way, if a number of years have elapsed then they’re probably outside the planning enforcement window anyway.

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G_M wrote: »

depending on the size of the original building, and the size of the extension, it might have fallen under 'permitted development' (google it!).

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[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]There is no permitted development rights for flats and external alteration would have required consent.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The shared garden was is how you saw it when you bought the flat so you got what you thought you were buying.[/FONT]

seven-day-weekend

da_rule wrote: »

They would have probably needed consent of the freeholder (depends on the exact terms of the lease) and they may have needed planning consent but it may depend on whether the development fell within permitted development. Either way, if a number of years have elapsed then they’re probably outside the planning enforcement window anyway.

Title plans don’t routinely get updated. They are usually based on the OS plan at the time of the initial transfer lease. They may be updated later if there is a boundary determination or a real need to update it.

There is no Permitted Development on flats, so they almost certainly needed Planning Permission. However, the length of time it has been there may mean that it is now exempt from enforcement action.

Doozergirl

G_M wrote: »

Not necessarily.

Much more investigation/information needed.

My question is why is it important?

The extension pre-dates the OP's purchase. The decision on whether it was acceptable was made by the OP personally back then.

If the OP's own plans for the ownership of their own space is incorrect, it's a potential issue, but at the moment, considering this only seems to relate to their neighbour's (old) title plan, I hope the reason for wanting to know isn't vexatious.

randomnumber

Hi all, thanks so much for the comprehensive replies - really helpful.

All five flats share the freehold and have the same lease and the same title plan; there is just one lease and title plan for the whole building.

It sounds like the title plan being wrong is not a cause for concern as they are not routinely updated with this sort of thing.

And this has no bearing on planning permission, which, whether it was originally sought or not, does not matter either as it is out of the time limit now.

Thanks again for all your help.

G_M

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There is no permitted development rights for flats and external alteration would have required consent.

Indeed. Thanks for the correction.
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Doozergirl wrote: »

My question is why is it important?

The extension pre-dates the OP's purchase. The decision on whether it was acceptable was made by the OP personally back then.

If the OP's own plans for the ownership of their own space is incorrect, it's a potential issue, but at the moment, considering this only seems to relate to their neighbour's (old) title plan, I hope the reason for wanting to know isn't vexatious.

Moi? Vexatious? :eek:


If the OP's lease /Plan and/or Title/PLan show shared access rights to the area of land on which the extension is built (ie because it is part of the shared garden), and/or the oter flats'Pland do, and/or the downstairs flat's Plans do not include that area of land, then that would suggest the downstairs leaseholder extended his flat into communal land without the appropriate consents.