Paypal refunds buyer after ebay found in my favour

mkboy

I sold a phone on ebay in January for about £500. Buyer paid by Paypal. Buyer chose click-and-collect from an Argos store.

Buyer gets phone. Some days later he opens an ebay case saying phone is faulty. Fair enough, it might be so I ask him (via the ebay resolution centre) to give me some more details as to the nature of the fault so I can figure out whether to collect and repair it or whatever. I get no response and after the alloted time, ebay realise this and find in my favour and close the case.

Ebay also notify me that they have suspended the buyer's account and that I need have no further communication with him. Subsequent chats to another seller who sold a phone to this guy (I saw him leave "positive feedback" that said "scam, scam, scam") So I contacted the other seller guy to ask why and he spilled me his story which involved my buyer running the SNAD/Ebay return scam on him at which point I recognised the beginning of a pattern with my transaction.

We can possibly assume that this was the reason Ebay suspended the buyer's account, and at this stage I am now strongly suspecting that I am also dealing with a scammer.

Anyway, Ebay done and dusted, a week later, the buyer opens a case at Paypal. Paypal, when I contact them by phone, say they cannot look at any of the previous evidence from the ebay transaction and case, and they have to only go on what they can see from their end. They then hold the case open while regularly messaging me saying they are requesting details from the buyer. They never request any details from me. It turns out that the buyer sent them a letter from an Apple Store which says the phone is faulty. On this basis they close the case and award the money to the buyer.

So I'm left with no money and no phone! How can Paypal do that? I wouldn't mind if I only had the phone back, but the buyer has never replied to me about how to get my goods back.

How can the buyer get two bites at the cherry? And what can I do now that Paypal have effectively assisted this buyer in defrauding me out of my money and goods?

Is it legal? I'm very happy for them to find in the buyers favour and insist that I get my goods back before refunding the money. But how can it be right, moral or legal that they can just steal my money and goods from me?

Not only that, but they have deducted all the money from my paypal account, including the ebay fees, and the paypal fees.

Please somebody tell me this isn't right!

theonlywayisup

You are missing a large chunk of detail.

When the case was opened on Paypal, what did you do and did you do it within the Paypal timeline?

mkboy

Sorry, I thought I laid it all out in paragraph 5..


...what I did was immediately call the Paypal customer services centre and spoke to a chap in Dublin and told him what had happened previously with ebay.


Thats it.


He said ok, the case is open, we can't take any of the ebay stuff into account, thankyou and it looks like we need to get some more details from the buyer (which it seems they did get in the end)



And that's all that happened during the case for the next two months, apart from the occasional email from them saying the case was being reviewed.


As far as I'm aware I have done everything by the book and within all relevant timelines. I respond to these things within hours not days.




I hope that answers your question

theonlywayisup

mkboy wrote: »

And that's all that happened during the case for the next two months, apart from the occasional email from them saying the case was being reviewed.

Was this a case for SNAD or was it a chargeback? The two are very different and a chargeback is more in line with a two month timescale....

theonlywayisup

To add to the above and help clarify it for you. Ebay and Paypal are separate and whilst you can't have a case open at each at the same time, you can open a case on Ebay and if that fails, you can open one on Paypal.

Paypal quite rightly will not look at what Ebay has ruled as it isn't the same company. Paypal will (assuming this is a SNAD) have asked the buyer for evidence that the item is faulty. An Apple letter is fairly conclusive. What should have happened is that Paypal should have ruled in the buyer's favour and they should have been asked to return it. Did this happen? Did you refuse the return?

If this is a chargeback for the item being faulty then you have no seller protection and it would simply be that you have to win (or lose) the case. If you could offer no counter evidence (despite not being asked) then you will lose.

https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full?locale.x=en_GB#r011

11.2 Availability of PayPal seller protection

PayPal seller protection is available to:

Payment Recipients with registered PayPal Account(s) in the Relevant Countries who receive PayPal payments from buyers making an eligible purchase (worldwide and everywhere PayPal is accepted).

PayPal seller protection does not apply to Claims, Chargebacks and/or Reversals for the reason that the purchase was Significantly Not as Described (SNAD) nor for items that you deliver or are picked up in person.

That is not to say you are not entitled to your item back, you are. But Paypal will not get involved in its repatriation if this is a chargeback.

There is nothing to stop you getting in touch with the buyer and asking them to return it, using a prepaid label that you supply.

mkboy

theonlywayisup wrote: »

Was this a case for SNAD or was it a chargeback? The two are very different and a chargeback is more in line with a two month timescale....

No this was a SNAD...



"Dispute reason ....... Item or service not as described
Case status .... Closed
Case resolution .... Decided in buyer's favour"

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

theonlywayisup wrote: »

T An Apple letter is fairly conclusive.

It would be conclusive that a phone is faulty.

OP have Paypal provided you with a copy of the letter?

If not I'd ask them for this to see if the serial number is detailed on the letter and if it is I'd then phone the store and see if they can confirm the serial number on the letter relates to the phone they inspected.

mkboy

theonlywayisup wrote: »

Paypal quite rightly will not look at what Ebay has ruled as it isn't the same company. Paypal will (assuming this is a SNAD) have asked the buyer for evidence that the item is faulty. An Apple letter is fairly conclusive. What should have happened is that Paypal should have ruled in the buyer's favour and they should have been asked to return it. Did this happen? Did you refuse the return?

- The Apple letter is only conclusive if it is about the same phone. That needs to be verified before we can attribute certainty to it. But it may indeed be right. Thats not the issue here. I accept the item may be faulty. I've never had any communication from the buyer to myself indicating what he wants me to do about it. If I had, I would have responded and tried to sort out some kind of return or repair etc. But there has been no, and I repeat this again in case its not clear, no response from the buyer to my request for information (made originally through the original ebay case).



- During the subsequent Paypal case, there has been no communication between me and the buyer. Why?

(a) because Ebay told me at the end of their case that I was to have no communication with him, and they had removed his account. Fair enough. Remember the ebay terms and conditions also forbid contact outside of Ebay anyway.

(b) because I don't have his contact details. Remember that it was a click-and-collect delivery so the address I have is for and Argos store in East London. Normally I would have access to his user address via ebay, but since ebay have cancelled his account I cant get that either.

(c) Paypal have never asked me to communicate with the buyer. They have handled the entire case themselves. I wasn't aware it was possible to communicate with another paypal use via paypal anyway, but bear in mind I have to also abide by Ebay's T&Cs.





No, as far as Im aware Paypal have not asked the buyer to return the phone, and if they have, they have not told me.

theonlywayisup wrote: »

There is nothing to stop you getting in touch with the buyer and asking them to return it, using a prepaid label that you supply.

There is... I don't know where he lives and Ebay have suspended his account so i can't see his details.


Remember also, that potentially, we are dealing with a fraudster, because the behaviour pattern fits with the well-known scam patterns and if this is true, then his name is probably fake, the addresses he supplied to ebay may well be fake, and he may not even have the phone any more.



Thats not to say he IS, just that we have to entertain the possibility that he may be. As i said in the OP, another ebay seller claims that this man DID scam him out of a phone (the same as mine) and he has provided me with the evidence of his return label being amended to redirect the package (which contained a leaflet, not the man's phone!) to another nearby address (same postcode, different house). This is the classic redirect scam.



But if he IS, then this would explain why he never responds to any requests for further indormation from me about sorting out a return or repair. If he was genuine one would expect he would jump at the chance. The fact he doesn't just rings alarm bells. Does no-one else see this?

mkboy

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head wrote: »

It would be conclusive that a phone is faulty.

OP have Paypal provided you with a copy of the letter?

If not I'd ask them for this to see if the serial number is detailed on the letter and if it is I'd then phone the store and see if they can confirm the serial number on the letter relates to the phone they inspected.

You are right they have not provided me with a copy of the letter, but I have requested at least that they check the serial number (I assume the Apple letter would have a serial number on it) and have provided them with the serial number of the phone I sold. I took photos of the number on the box for the original auction.


It remains to be seen whether they do this. I have had no response from Paypal yet (2 days so far).

mkboy

Further to this case, I investigated the possibility of appealing the Paypal case..


Clicking the "Appeal" button reveals only two possible reasons for appeal (of which you must select one in order to continue)

1 - That a refund has already been given outside of Paypal, and that i have proof of this refund
2 - That the item has been returned but not in the same state it was sent.


Now, i am surprised at this second one because it seems to me that this opens a huge loophole in the seller's favour which I'm sure unscrupulous sellers will exploit.



But thats beside the point. The point is on what grounds can I appeal? There aren't any. Which seems to me against all natural justice and morality.



And I used to think Paypal were a decent company. I have certainly benefitted from their services a great deal in the past.



It occurred to me in the bath this morning, that Paypal have not looked after their customer. Who is their customer? I am. Not the buyer. Why? because I paid them their service charge to transact the money.



I have paid for a service which I have not ultimately recieved. That is; To transfer money from the buyer to myself. Yes, they did that, but then they undid it. And they still kept the charges. If a waste firm you paid to clear your garden did so then brought it all back and dumped it back in your garden, you would at least expect them to give you back the money they charged for their service...


Remember, I bought the service from Paypal, not the buyer. I am Paypal's customer, (for this transaction) not the buyer. So why do Paypal nearly always decide against their own customers? What happened to "The customer is always right"? It seems that in Paypal's case, the customer is never right.



Is there an angle here to claim false trading or whatever it might legally be called?

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Paypal are a bank so you need to make a formal complaint:

https://www.paypal.com/uk/smarthelp/article/how-can-i-make-a-formal-complaint-to-paypal-faq2016

Allow them 8 weeks and then raise the complaint here:

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk

No good for the OP I know but this is why when selling something worth more than you are will to lose Click & Collect might not be a good option to offer.