Electric radiators

THE_MAJOR

Hi,
I know there has been much previous chat about this. We are about to move to a new property (built 1990's) which still has the original storage heaters (& I think immersion heater). Never used electric (Economy 7) radiators/storage heaters etc so am getting very confused with all the reviews (good and bad) on them.
I could really do with some advice before I spend a shed load of money and find we have installed the wrong heating system. Oil/LPG installation will cost between £10-£15k. Looked at Fischer Future and Dimplex Quantum/Q Rad - cannot work out or decide which is the best option in terms of heating efficiency or long term cost/savings. Any up to date sensible advice welcome.
Thanks

Robin9

Lots of comments about Fischer heaters and other similar makes on this forum.

Look up how to use the input and output controls on the existing heaters and how to use boost on your hot water before you make any decisions.

nigelbb

Unless there is something very unusual about your situation installing oil/LPG central heating shouldn’t cost anything like £10-15K. About £4-6K would be more like it. Don’t forget that you will be able to cook with LPG too & the overall level of comfort with central heating will be better than with night storage heaters. Even with Economy 7 the costs of heating with electricity are vastly greater than with oil/LPG.

jk0

How long do you plan to keep the house? Sounds rather wasteful (and not money saving) to get rid of twenty year old storage heaters. (I have several of 35 years old still working fine.)


They partly make up for the cost of running, by having little to no maintenance cost. I suggest you try them for a year before deciding what to do.

mmmmikey

Hi

I had a similar dilemma a year or so back deciding what to replace expensive to run electric radiators with, and in the end opted for E7 storage heaters which has proved (for me) a very cost effective solution. I decided to buy reconditioned storage heaters of the same design-vintage as yours, on the grounds that they are so simple they are likely to outlive me. I have to say, the amount of negative sentiment about storage heaters here did make me very nervous about my decision, but I'm confident now that I went the right way. Just as the scales don't lie when you're dieting, the bills don't lie when you're trying to reduce heating costs.

Keep in mind that the cost of the fuel is only part of the total cost of ownership. If you change to central heating, you'll need to factor in the cost of an annual service for the boiler (about £50 per year), and make some kind of allowance for ongoing maintenance and repairs - the occasional pump, etc. (another £50 per year, perhaps?) So even without taking into the account of the initial installation you'll have to save £100 or so per year to make it worth it. Alternatively, you could opt for a boiler service/maintenance plan (say £10 or £15 per month) which would take away some of the risk but may end up costing more.

Also, a typical boiler might be expected to last 15 years or so (as opposed to a lifetime for storage heaters) with a replacement cost of perhaps £2000, so there's another £125 or so per year to factor in.

Then there's the cost of actually having the system installed. Putting aside the cost of the boiler (already covered in the last paragraph) you're looking at another £3000 or so - don't forget to add any redecorating costs in this if that's applicable to you (hoepfully not if you're going to redecorate anyway). So to payback in say 20 years, you'd need to save another £150 per year.

So all in all, you'll need to be saving of the order of £400 per year in fuel costs to make it worth investing in something different.

Overnight E7 electricity is now available for 5p or so per kWh vs 3p or 4p per kWh for gas so there are some big svaings to be had for big systems, but comments you see occasionally like "electricty is 3 times the price" are way off the mark. Also, you have to be using a fair amount of energy to see a payback. Many people do, but not everybody. Having said that you do have to factor in paying more for your day time electricty, and this can vary quite a lot depending on your energy-saving habits.

In my case, when I did the sums I was never going to pay for the cost of installing central heating, and taking the servicing and maintenance costs into account even the year on year running costs aren't much more for E7 storage heaters.

The bottom line is that you shouldn't assume you're going to save money by going to LPG, oil or gas - you need to do the sums for yourself based on your own system.

Whatever you do, it's worth focusing on things like insulation and reducing your overall consumption first as you could easily find that you get a much better payback by insulating the loft, gradually changing to more efficient appliances, developing energy saving habits, etc. than you would be shelling out for a new heating system.

I think the suggesting of trying the heaters for a year is good advice. It's worth checking whether you have manual or automatic heaters - of that vintage they could be either and you won't be able to tell by looking at them as if they are bog standard Creda or Dimplex models the automatic versions look identical to the manula versions. If you have automatic hetaers and constantly fiddle with the controls, you'll probably never get them to work. I'm speculating, but I think that is one of the problems that many people have had. A downside of storage heaters is that you do need to know what you've got and to set them properly, which is something many people struggle with. So I suggest you check what you have and follow the instructions for that type carefully, including the how to set them up for the first time instructions.

I've found that automatic heaters (such as the Creda TSRAW models I have, which are a 20 year old design, although only a few years old) are pretty good at maintaining a constant temperature right the way through until bedtime. I aim for a temperature of 20 degrees and I've only had to adjust the controls 5 times since the autumn to achieve this. (Confession - I'm a spreadsheet and data-logger freak!) The automated input and output controls work well together and there have only been 4 days in 5 months or so when I've drifted more than 1 degree from this. It really isn't the case that you need to be constantly watching the weather to make them work if you have automatic heaters (which you may well do). I've found that all that is needed is a slight tweak if a prolonged cold or warm spell is forecast, they cope very well with day to day changes even when these are abrupt.

Don't be fooled by the "wasted heat during the day" argument. The heat that's wasted isn't the heat that goes from the storage heater into the house during the day, it's the heat that goes from the house to the outside. Of course, a warmer house will loose more heat than a colder one, so it does cost more to keep the house up to 20 degrees during the day (which is what storage heaters of the vintage of the ones you've got do) than to let it drop back and time the central heating to come on shortly before you come home from work. But even on a cold winter's day, a house at 20 degrees may only drop to 17 or 18 degrees with the central heating off - an average of 18 to 18.5 degrees through the day. The addtional cost of heating the house to 20 degrees all day vs letting it fall back to an average of 18 to 18.5 degrees for 8 hours Mon to Fri may only be 5% or 10% more - much the same as you lose in boiler efficiency with gas etc. This isn't just me theorising - I have bills to prove it!

I'm not arguing that storage heaters are the right solution for everyone, just pointing out that in my experience the arguments against them are somewhat over stated and it's worth checking out your options carefully.

One final thought - if you decide to stick with storage heaters, but find that you have difficulty controlling the temperature in 1 or 2 rooms, you could just replace those with newer "Lot 20" heaters (these are the currently generation heaters that have easier to use controls and are generally better at maintaining the temperature you want).

So unfortunately not a straightforward decision and one to consider carefully - good luck, Mike

dogshome

Those ugly, big chunky Storage Heaters were actually quite economic - The sheer size was because they contained a lot of material that stored a lot of heat


Newer slimline models may have smart controls and magic snake oil to store heat, but they can't match the heat store values of the old designs

nigelbb

The basic drawback with night storage heaters is lack of flexibility & paying for heat before you know whether you need it or not. The house can be kept more comfortable more economically with oil/gas/LPG central heating where heating is on demand.

mmmmikey

nigelbb wrote: »

The basic drawback with night storage heaters is lack of flexibility & paying for heat before you know whether you need it or not. The house can be kept more comfortable more economically with oil/gas/LPG central heating where heating is on demand.

I certainly agree that central heating is more controllable, and if you have a lifestyle where you're out a lot or don't know from one day to the next whether you're going to be in or out this can definitely be an advantage.



Conversely if, like me, you're retired and spend a lot of time at home, the constant heat of storage heaters is advantageous. So it does depend on your individual circumstances, and for those of us have a fairly regular requirement for heating the more limited controllability of storage heaters is not a big issue. Horses for courses, I guess.



By the way, one thing I didn't make clear in my previous post was that although my dilemma was similar - instant electric heaters (like those from Fischer Future Heat) vs E7 storage heaters vs gas central heating - I started from a different place. The previous owner had installed Fischer Future Heaters, and I was looking for a less expensive alternatives. I ripped these out and replaced them with E7 storage heaters, just about halving my energy bills.



In my case I was looking at gas as an alternative rather than LPG or oil, so another cost I had to factor in was the additional standing charge. Another £70 or so per year adding to the cost of the gas itself and tipping the balance firmly towards E7.



If you're considering Fischer Future heaters you should look at the separate thread on those where you'll see numerous horror stories and very little praise.

cajef

Fischer Storage Heater thread:-

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/3516223/fischer-storage-heaters

Owain_Moneysaver

mmmmikey wrote: »

comments you see occasionally like "electricty is 3 times the price" are way off the mark.

peak rate electricity - such as used by Fisher Future heat and all the other 'magic' electric radiators is approx 3 x the price of gas.

A good E7 tariff is not as cheap as gas, but not far off it especially for smaller well-insulated houses where heat loss during the day isn't such an issue and when you take the capital and maintenance costs into account.

On the other hand, gas central heating is most preferred by house buyers and is one of the few home improvements where you can get back what you pay.

nigelbb

Owain_Moneysaver wrote: »

peak rate electricity - such as used by Fisher Future heat and all the other 'magic' electric radiators is approx 3 x the price of gas.

Electricity is 4-5x the cost of gas per kWh e.g. I pay 15.49. per kWh for electricity & 3.237p per kWh for gas.

Owain_Moneysaver wrote: »

A good E7 tariff is not as cheap as gas, but not far off it especially for smaller well-insulated houses where heat loss during the day isn't such an issue and when you take the capital and maintenance costs into account.

For most E7 tariffs off peak electricity is still double the cost of gas whereas peak electricity on E7 tariff is at least 5x the cost of gas.

Owain_Moneysaver wrote: »

On the other hand, gas central heating is most preferred by house buyers and is one of the few home improvements where you can get back what you pay.

No argument there, Given the choice between running gas central heating & E7 storage heaters you would be mad to opt for E7.