Pre-approved PayPal payment refund

KennyLemon

Hello,

I am new here and would very much like to know what you think. Over a year ago I subscribed (as a private person) to an online service. The company, based in the UK, promised to promote my craft-related activity online for a course of a year in return for £60.00. I was not happy with their efforts, the service was extremely disappointing, therefore, I made a mental note not to use their service again in the future.
Much to my surprise, I noticed another £60.00 going from my debit card to this company, via PayPal, this year. I contacted the company via email, asking to refund my money, explaining that I did not wish to continue using their service. The person in charge of the company clearly refused to issue any refund, pointing that the amount of £60.00 was pre-approved in my PayPal account and that I ought to resolve the issue with PayPal. However, when contacted, PayPal claimed that - as the pre-approved payment had already gone, they could not do anything about it and refered me back to the company. Similarly, the debit card representatives refused to help, as the payment had gone via PayPal, not directly from the card.
I - obviosuly - cancelled all the pre-approved payments to this company, however, not much of a surprise, I already lost all my faith in PayPal. The whole issue seems to be a visious circle, making me wonder, how many people fall victim to a similar loop in so-called “customer protection law”. I contacted the company in question once more in order to ask for my money back, however, they - again - refused, claiming that it is a “PayPal fault” (rubbish) and that they terms and conditions stated I should have cancelled my pre-approved payment in advance if I did not wish to continue using their service.
This might be so, but, having been a member of many societies and using a few other subscription services, I have always been asked whether or not I wished to remain a subscriber. That seemed to me obvious and decent. The business in question seems rather like a rough trader and, presumably, preys on human imperfections, e.g. on forgetting to cancel the pre-approved payment.

But, as I firmly believe, someone’s dodgy small printed “terms and conditions” do not override the law. I found some useful info on this topic online on the government website. Sorry I can’t post a link as I am a new member of MSE, but the site spells out in crystal clear language which contractual terms are likely to be considered as fair and which are likely to be considered as unfair.

The company’s terms and conditions did not provide "for a reminder to be sent a reasonable time before renewal", nor do they "give the right to cancel following renewal without having to pay a cancellation fee".

So I decided to take them to a small claims court. What I would like to know is whether someone could offer their opinion on what is the chance that the judge will rule in my favour. I have a “gut feeling” I am right with regards to where the law stands here, but I suspect I need some re-assurance. I know that for some people £60.00 might not be worth the effort from financial point of view, but I want to do it for a prinicple and, hopefully, to create a precedent for all the other victims of that business.

Any thoughts much appreciated.

mattyprice4004

If you want professional advice, you need to hire a solicitor. This is a forum for opinions, and that's all you'll likely get.

As the service was for your business, the law is very different to a business to consumer transaction - being B2B you lose a lot of your rights and the onus is transferred to you to check through the contract properly.

You admit you subscribed, I'm subscribed to many things that don't give me a reminder before they're due - so I feel you're expecting a little much.
I do think you've shot yourself in the foot by rushing to Small Claims with this - if the judge catches wind you're a business, you'll be held to the T&Cs you subscribed to.

Someone running a business is meant to be much more capable in terms of decisions and understanding what they're buying, hence your rights being diminished quite significantly.
Pretty much everything you've read online is probably irrelevant due to this - things don't have to be as 'crystal clear' in a business contract for the reasoning above.
Good luck!

waamo

If you want professional advice you need to pay a professional who has indemnity insurance for the service they offer and not ask a bunch of anonymous amateurs on a web forum.

I also have a feeling that your "gut feeling" is wrong.

KennyLemon

I wasn’t clear - my fault - I subscribed as a private person and the activity referred here as “business” is my art-and-craft related activity.

Similarly, what I referred to as “professional advice” was meant to be an opinion of those who experienced similar issues (to differ from, say, wishful thinking). I do apologise if I was unclear.

Thanks, anyway, for your input.

waamo

What does your activity involve? Do you buy and sell goods? So often businesses turn up here claiming not to be businesses.

KennyLemon

I am an artist and the website I subscribed to was supposed to “expose” my art to a number of people. The aim was for my artworks to be exposed, not to be sold.
I do not have any art-related business.

waamo

We have had two completely differing stories in one thread. Firstly you needed professional assistance for your business that has now become a hobby.

I would see a solicitor and give them the whole, accurate story. Many do a free 30 minute session. Be completely open and honest with them as you may be seeking answers you want to hear rather than accurate information you need to hear.

KennyLemon

OK, so it was supposed to be my first ever post on MSE nd I screwed it up by my clumsy English. Too bad I can’t re-write it, as everything I write will be seen as suspicious! 😟

My doodling has never been a business. I know I wrote the word “business” in my first thread, as I said it was an error. English is not my first language and sometimes I happen to be language clumsy.

The website takes subscriptions from the artists claiming to upload their artworks online and, from time to time, it posts “competitions” for members. I was naive to subscribe, hiwever, I was at the very beginning of my “career” as an artist and I was overly excited when I received their “offer”.

Thanks for advice anyway, I have actually just spoken to a legal representatives and I am back in high spirits.
:j

waamo

KennyLemon wrote: »

OK, so it was supposed to be my first ever post on MSE nd I screwed it up by my clumsy English. Too bad I can’t re-write it, as everything I write will be seen as suspicious! 😟

My doodling has never been a business. I know I wrote the word “business” in my first thread, as I said it was an error. English is not my first language and sometimes I happen to be language clumsy.

The website takes subscriptions from the artists claiming to upload their artworks online and, from time to time, it posts “competitions” for members. I was naive to subscribe, hiwever, I was at the very beginning of my “career” as an artist and I was overly excited when I received their “offer”.

Thanks for advice anyway, I have actually just spoken to a legal representatives and I am back in high spirits.
:j

It's more of an issue with this forum than you. Personally I'm risk averse when giving advice (I'm conscious it's not my money at stake) and secondly so many people come here with a story that changes and get inaccurate advice because they only want to hear positive viewpoints it's not true.

bris

Legal representatives for £60? Not many people will believe it's not business related and a changing story just really confirms that.


Even if it is decided that you are a consumer the chances of getting your money back are slim as rolling contracts are legal.


Chances are however that the site you signed up to is a business related site with T&C's to confirm that, which you will have digitally signed.