£3K in parking fines - help!

ShedHeadgirl

Hello everyone
Another day off to deal with this.. :-(

Starting with details of the claim that we are defending:

"An outstanding parking charge..(VRN info)...The site is managed by the Claimant. The Defendant is the keeper of or the driver named in accordance with Schedule 4 of Protection of Freedom Act 2012 of the vehicle. Vehicles parked at the Site are subject to the parking restrictions and terms and conditions which are set out on signs and form part of a contract between the driver of the vehicle and the Claimant. On 01 07 the Vehicle was parked at the site in breach of the contract, the contravention being Unauthorised Parking. By entering this contract the Defendant agreed that they would be liable for £40.00 parking charges, plus additional contractual charges incured (sic) by the claimant for the collection of dept pursuant to the terms and conditions."

Standard stuff I presume.

The wording on the signs on a pole at the main entrance to the car park is as follows:

Top sign
"Authorised Permit Holders Only. Manual patrols and ANPR cameras in Operation 24 hours to monitor this private property. We may contact the DVLA to request the Registered Keeper's details in order to send a Parking Charge Notice (PCN). By parking in this car park the motorist agrees to comply with the Terms and Conditions displayed and available on our website https://www.green-parking.co.uk. Traffic control system managed by Green Parking Ltd. Enquiries to (telephone number shown is indistinct in photo) or enquiries@green-parking.co.uk."

Lower sign:
"Parking for Permit Holders only. Failure to comply with the following may result in a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) of £85.
Parking is for Authorised Permit Holders only
Park only within marked bays
Blue badge holders only within marked bays
Green Parking Ltd is solely engaged to provide a traffic space maximisation scheme. We are not responsible for the car park surface, other motor vehicles, damage or loss to or from other motor vehicles or users Safety. The parking regulations for this car park apply 24 hours a day all year round, irrespective of the site opening hours. Parking is at the absolute discretion of the store*. By parking within this car park motorists agree to comply with the car park regulations the motorist accepts (grammar sic) that they are liable to pay a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) and their names and addresses may be requested from the DVL (sic)
Parking Charge Information: a reduction of the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) is available for a period, as notified in the Parking Charge Notice (PCN). The reduced amount will not exceed £40. Failure to pay this charge may result in debt recovery and enforcement which could include County Court proceedings and which may incur additional costs. The costs of recovery will be added to the Charge. This car park is private property and for the use of permit holders only."

*Hmm. There is a store onsite I believe. I will find out more.

Have had an informal initial chat with a solicitor: some defence ideas include: new signs indicates an admittance that the old signs were inadequate (am still trying to establish if this is correct, google street view is unhelpful here), no ticket left on screen therefore not on notice for previous PCNs, times of tickets indicate no hindrance to other users (most are overnight, none are during a working day, I suspect none are when the on-site shop was open)

The PCNs arrived at least a couple of weeks after the offences - and a whole bunch of them arrived together six weeks later (maybe they went back through the CCTV looking for other offences?). Most are out of hours, and on at least one occasion there was more than one PCN issued in a single day.

Back to you...all help still very much appreciated!
Thanks ShedHeadgirl

[Deleted User]

Parking for Permit Holders only.

So arguably you as a non permit holder were not offered parking at all, much less agree to terms of parking. If you're not offered, you can't accept.

By parking in this car park the motorist agrees to comply with the Terms and Conditions displayed and available on our website https://www.green-parking.co.uk

!!!!!!? They'd have issued a ticket before you went off to Google them. Do check if those are different to the signs too...

Parking is at the absolute discretion of the store*

So even if youd followed all terms it could be unilaterally withdrawn without notice and a ticket given. Seems like an unfair term.

Failure to comply with the following may result in a Parking Charge Notice

So it's not a charge but a penalty for breach of a term (which you were never able to comply with, never being entitled to a permit)

The costs of recovery will be added to the Charge

I.e. the actual costs, not notional bolt-ons but real expenses.

These are all a bit technical, but quite fun to argue if you can handle it and are prepared to risk paying them if ordered to.

TBH I still blame the boyfriend....

Aylesbury_Duck

OP, why are you dealing with all of this and taking time off work to do so? Your daughter is clearly old enough to drive and have use of a car, and grown-up enough to live semi-independently with a boyfriend, so why isn't she dealing with this herself?

ShedHeadgirl

Thanks for the post...she's not dealing with it for a number of reasons...not least because a car accident has left her with some minor mental capacity challenges and depression (which is probably why she ignored the original letters) as well as memory issues. Yes she is capable of driving a car and making moment by moment decisions. I am, of course, tremendously worried about her mental health as this progresses. However, we would prefer not to use her mental capacity as a defence as this probably opens a huge can of worms elsewhere. So, for now I am doing what I can, and the help on here has been tremendous.

ShedHeadgirl

@Jonersh
Thanks ever so much for your input. Does anyone know of any simiilar cases where these arguments have been successful?

Parking for Permit Holders only.
”So arguably you as a non permit holder were not offered parking at all, much less agree to terms of parking. If you're not offered, you can't accept. - I'll talk to the solicitor about this line of defence, but if anyone has any examples of it working I would be very interested.
“
By parking in this car park the motorist agrees to comply with the Terms and Conditions displayed and available on our website https://www.green-parking.co.uk
”!!!!!!? They'd have issued a ticket before you went off to Google them. Do check if those are different to the signs too... - yes I will do this
“
Parking is at the absolute discretion of the store*
”So even if youd followed all terms it could be unilaterally withdrawn without notice and a ticket given. Seems like an unfair term. - there's no store on site I think, I went and checked on Friday
“
Failure to comply with the following may result in a Parking Charge Notice
”So it's not a charge but a penalty for breach of a term (which you were never able to comply with, never being entitled to a permit) - again I will check with the lawyer on this one
“
The costs of recovery will be added to the Charge
”I.e. the actual costs, not notional bolt-ons but real expenses. - it's the costs that have really blown the whole thing up.

These are all a bit technical, but quite fun to argue if you can handle it and are prepared to risk paying them if ordered to. - fun doesnt really come into it for me, but am feeling pretty scared by the whole episode and prepared to try anything.

TBH I still blame the boyfriend....I think maybe I do too! PS the boyfriend is still a friend but no longer a boyfriend, and we were talking occasional overnights, not sure if this qualifies as semi-residing? As a non-resident I guess, yes no opportunity to buy a permit. I walked the car park on Friday and took lots more pics. TBH the signage is clear, although towards the back of the car park it gets more confusing as there are signs claiming that spaces are for shops that back onto the property. I need to find a way to anonymously post up the pix I think?

ShedHeadgirl

Is there a time limit for PCNs to arrive?
It looks as though GP went back through their videos looking for other instances of her parking, and then sent her a batch of PCNs all on the same day around 2 months after the original offences.

ShedHeadgirl

Also the info has arrived from the DVLA and it looks as though GP followed procedures, using a V888/3 form. On some occasions they have used the form to apply for information on several dates.

I note that the back of the DVLA information says that the notice to keeper must be delivered within 14 days; if that timescale is not met, the keeper liability powers do not apply. So, if the main claim proceeds, perhaps we might be able to get some dismissed on this basis?

ShedHeadgirl

Hello again
I've just been following up on Jonersh's comment around checking terms and conditions:
“
By parking in this car park the motorist agrees to comply with the Terms and Conditions displayed and available on our website https://www.green-parking.co.uk
”!!!!!!? They'd have issued a ticket before you went off to Google them. Do check if those are different to the signs too...

I actually cant see any terms and conditions on the GP website relating to residential parking at all.
http://www.green-parking.co.uk/terms-and-conditions/ or am I looking in the wrong place? Similarly the company brochure presumes pay and display parking throughout. I have saved a digital copy of the brochure and taken screen shots of the Ts&Cs page.

Coupon-mad

Parking for Permit Holders only.
”So arguably you as a non permit holder were not offered parking at all, much less agree to terms of parking. If you're not offered, you can't accept. - I'll talk to the solicitor about this line of defence, but if anyone has any examples of it working I would be very interested.

Look in the two Case Law and more Case Law pages on the Parking Prankster's website.

I am thinking:

PACE v Lengyel
VCS v Quayle
PCM v Bull

ShedHeadgirl

@Coupon-mad brilliant, thank you, I will. Back later!