DIY probate advice please

Mistermeaner

Hi

Mum died recently leaving Dad as sole beneficiary and executor of her will. I am helping dad sorting out all aspects of their finances and practical arrangements.

We have a meeting with dads solicitor today (who hold the original will) and will be asking them to quote for managing probate, but have been having a look online at whether I could do this myself and save dad a few quid.

First question is what would be a typical solicitors charge for probate (given the circumstances below)?


As above dad is sole beneficiary and executor of mums will.

I think the first thing I would need to do to manage this on dads behalf is for dad to appoint me as an attorney via form PA11?

Next step I understand is to value my mums estate for Inheritance tax purposes; my estimate so far is as follows:

50% of the house (joint tennants): £175K
50% of joint account: £12.5K
50% of gifts (money given to brother 3 years ago): £75K
100% of Cash ISA holdings: £70K
100% of S&S ISA holdings: £100K
100% of death annuity: £15K
TOTAL ~ £450k

She has other possessions (e.g. jewellery, clothes, TV etc. not included in the above so I guess she goes over the threshold for inheritance tax)

On this basis I believe I will need to complete form IHT400 along with its various supporting documents?

- this looks very complicated!


Once this is done I believe I need to use form PA1P and submit that along with PA11 and any details from IHT400 (and IHT 421?)


One last specific question: regards the gift... who pays the tax due on the gift - is it the recipient of the gift (the brother) or the estate...... and if the recipient of the gift pays the tax is the gift then deducted from the value of the estate?


Thanks

Yorkshireman99

Mistermeaner wrote: »

Hi

Mum died recently leaving Dad as sole beneficiary and executor of her will. I am helping dad sorting out all aspects of their finances and practical arrangements.

We have a meeting with dads solicitor today (who hold the original will) and will be asking them to quote for managing probate, but have been having a look online at whether I could do this myself and save dad a few quid.

First question is what would be a typical solicitors charge for probate (given the circumstances below)?


As above dad is sole beneficiary and executor of mums will.

I think the first thing I would need to do to manage this on dads behalf is for dad to appoint me as an attorney via form PA11?

Next step I understand is to value my mums estate for Inheritance tax purposes; my estimate so far is as follows:

50% of the house (joint tennants): £175K
50% of joint account: £12.5K
50% of gifts (money given to brother 3 years ago): £75K
100% of Cash ISA holdings: £70K
100% of S&S ISA holdings: £100K
100% of death annuity: £15K
TOTAL ~ £450k

She has other possessions (e.g. jewellery, clothes, TV etc. not included in the above so I guess she goes over the threshold for inheritance tax)

On this basis I believe I will need to complete form IHT400 along with its various supporting documents?

- this looks very complicated!


Once this is done I believe I need to use form PA1P and submit that along with PA11 and any details from IHT400 (and IHT 421?)


One last specific question: regards the gift... who pays the tax due on the gift - is it the recipient of the gift (the brother) or the estate...... and if the recipient of the gift pays the tax is the gift then deducted from the value of the estate?


Thanks

You canDIY it. If the house is joint tennts it passes to your dad outside the estate so no IHI

Mistermeaner

Yorkshireman99 wrote: »

You canDIY it. If the house is joint tennts it passes to your dad outside the estate so no IHI

That would make things much simpler !

As I read the .gov advice being as mum's estate gets above the 325k and being its complicated by the gift etc i will still need to do the IHT 400 form (even if there is no tax to pay)?

To be honest this looks the most daunting aspect of the process

Or is it possible to transfer the house to dad pre probate application thus excluding it from the estate value (and the other joint assets?) such that only her solely held assets are reported in the estate and The value therefore below The threshold for reporting

Mojisola

Mistermeaner wrote: »

50% of the house (joint tennants): £175K

If the house is owned as 'joint tenants' rather than 'tenants in common', then the house is now wholly owned by your father.

PasturesNew

Our solicitor charged £160/hour.... that's £40 every time they dictate/send a letter.

It might seem complicated.... but even if it takes you 4-5 hours to do a 10 minute job you're better off...

Let him keep his money .... it's better off in your dad's pocket than the pocket of somebody who doesn't need it.

Owain_Moneysaver

Mistermeaner wrote: »

50% of the house (joint tennants): £175K
50% of joint account: £12.5K
50% of gifts (money given to brother 3 years ago): £75K
100% of Cash ISA holdings: £70K
100% of S&S ISA holdings: £100K
100% of death annuity: £15K
TOTAL ~ £450k

She has other possessions (e.g. jewellery, clothes, TV etc. not included in the above so I guess she goes over the threshold for inheritance tax)

On this basis I believe I will need to complete form IHT400 along with its various supporting documents?

- this looks very complicated!

The forms themselves are actually fairly well designed and logical. You just need to be well-organised, sorting your mother's paperwork into sections according to which form they go with, then totalling everything up.

50% of the house (joint tennants): £175K get a RICS surveyor's valuation of the house, IHT405
50% of joint account: £12.5K date of death statement from the bank, IHT406
50% of gifts (money given to brother 3 years ago): £75K IHT403, and ask the solicitor to advise on the tax position if it isn't clear
100% of Cash ISA holdings: £70K closing statement from the bank, IHT406
100% of S&S ISA holdings: £100K closing statement from the ISA manager, box 2 IHT411 if they are publicly listed shares
100% of death annuity: £15K statement from the annuity provider, IHT410 (IHT409 if it's a pension annuity)
TOTAL ~ £450k

Unless the jewellery is valuable, the personal effects are likely to be a token amount only. IHT407 or IHT408 if any go to charity (eg charity shop/house clearance)

IHT416 and IHT419 (debts due to/by the estate) are usually things like utility bills paid in advance or owing if they were in mum's name, tax/pension/benefits under/overpayments (eg if your mother had savings interest not taxed at source and income tax is due)

If the above is all you have to deal with affairs should be fairly straightforward. You can get the solicitor to transfer the house into sole ownership, and advise you on the gift question if you want.

You don't need to be an attorney if you help your dad complete the forms and he checks and signs them.

Owain_Moneysaver

Mistermeaner wrote: »

Or is it possible to transfer the house to dad pre probate application thus excluding it from the estate value (and the other joint assets?)

No, the probate application and IHT return must be made according to the state of assets as at the date of death.

It's normal for there to be transactions after death especially if banks etc didn't freeze accounts instantly, but they are reflected in the executor's accounts kept during the period of executry of the estate, not the deceased's accounts.

getmore4less

First question were they married?

assuming yes

AS you dad inherits everything except the gift this will be a lot simpler

although the total is £450k the spouse exemption kicks for all the stuff dad get.
(even with joint tenants the value of the house is still included).

ISA can now be transferred within the ISA wrapper so no need to cash them in.

That leaves the £75k gift that reduces any transferable nil rate band.

As all the holding including the house will be exempt good estimates will do No need to pay for any valuations unless HMRC ask for them.

If not married then...

it all changes but still relatively simple and there is scope to remove any IHT liability

Mistermeaner

Mojisola wrote: »

If the house is owned as 'joint tenants' rather than 'tenants in common', then the house is now wholly owned by your father.

forgive me if i am getting confused; can i contact land regustry and transfer the hous ewholly into dads name now then prior to applying for probate and hence remove its value from my mums estate?

getmore4less

Mistermeaner wrote: »

forgive me if i am getting confused; can i contact land regustry and transfer the hous ewholly into dads name now then prior to applying for probate and hence remove its value from my mums estate?

That's not how it works.

There is no transfer the name just gets removed.


The value is at DOD and nothing can change that now.

It does not matter as the value is exempt(if they were married).


the forms are actually quit simple for most of the stuff, a lot of the IHT400 sub forms will not be needed and they are often the hard ones.

Misslayed

My sister and I did all the forms for my mother's (similar) estate, it took time but was not difficult, and we realised that a solicitor would have had to ask us for answers to most of the questions before he ticked the boxes. Solicitor friend said he would have charged around £7,500 to do it. The helpline was very useful, patiently answered all our questions.