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Buying Advice/Vendor Issues

jezzer_72
Posts: 81 Forumite

Hi All
Very long post but please stay with me. I think i have a dodgy vendor. I'm a first time buyer and buying with my GF.
We put in an offer back in October which was rejected. The house sold but came back on the market. We put in another offer and it was rejected. A few weeks later the estate agent calls to see if we are still interested. We put in another offer but reduced from our initial offer. The vendor rejected it but about 3 days later the estate agent calls up and asks if we are still interested. The vendor accepted (last week of Nov) the offer after a second viewing about a week and a half later.
Since then there has been nothing but shifty behaviour IMO.
First off, the vendor pushed us to complete before christmas (at that point 4 weeks away). We advised that wouldn't be possible and said it would be more realistic to set date for Jan (as you can see we are now in Feb). The Vendor has constantly told us to move faster.
Secondly we found out that the house was still for sale with another agent (after being told it would be removed from sale) even after we had instructed the survey and applied for the Mortgage... naturally i sent a strongly worded email to the EA which got them scrambling but at first the vendor refused to remove it until exchange (unacceptable to me). It was finally shown as SSTC a week after our email now 5.5 weeks after accepting the offer.
Thirdly - We instructed a Home Buyers Survey which came back with a few things including removal of walls and a chimney breast and advised that we make sure planning permission and building regs are in place. It had a huge list of 3's (9 things on there including the chimney breast removal, roof vents, felt roof failing in places, no water proofing in the roof and spray foam insulation, inadequate floor vents, to name a few and the same number of 2's including chimney stack repair, guttering, wood joinery, partition walls, no insulation to the side passage that has been built over and inadequate insulation to the roof and wall ties). The EA already let slip that a previous buyer pulled out once they had the survey completed which worried me but we had already instructed one at this point. I've had phone quotes to do the work and i am looking at about 2k for the serious stuff and probably 1-2 (6k for a new roof) for less serious that can be done over time.
We raised the removal of the chimney and sought building regs certificate and planning approvals from the Vendor in December. The Vendor claims the work was done before they took ownership of the house (i think some of that is a lie) but they corrected the chimney and added supports in October and did not seek building regs approval. I asked for approval a number of times but was told that they were unwilling to get building regs (notwithstanding that its a legal requirement) bue to cost and delays and instead gave me a structural survey. We instructed our solicitor and after a couple of weeks back and forth following searches they have now called the Council in and we await the regularisation certificate.
Fourth - The house has some extension which appear to have planning permission from the 70's. There are other changes to the house that the Vendor claims were completed prior to them owning the property including the central heating. As i said above, i think this is a lie but obviously cannot prove it. I do however, suspect that a new Worcester Bosch Boiler was installed fairly recently. I would say 10 years as my nan has had a similar looking boiler installed in 2009 although it is possible that it was available before then (but cannot prove it until i get back in the house which will probably annoy the EA). The Vendor has drained the system so we cannot turn it on see if it works but they claim to not have gas safe certificates for installation as it was installed before 2004.
Fifth - There is a sewer in the garden which has come up in our search and might have been built over due to extensions. Our Solicitor has highlighted this but the vendor says its not under the extension and that there has never been any requests for access (how would they know if they didn't build the extensions? I didn't notice a manhole on my visit but i wasn't looking particularly at that point)
Seventh - The house was rented out previously and the vendor is unwilling to provide any safety certificates other than electric from 2013. I understand that the Vendor doesn't need to provide this but if i was selling and pressing for a quick sale i'd provide it so it seems odd they won't. I'm guessing the renting wasn't strictly above board and they probably don't have the certificates they need rent it out. I doubt it was even registered with the Council.
Eight - Vendor wants to exchange before the Building Regs comes through but we have refused to do this.
Nine - The house was rented out and the Vendor threatened to withdraw and rent it during the first few weeks whilst we were waiting for a decision on our Mortgage. So trust wasn't high on my part from the start.
Specific questions
1 - Do you think i can negotiate the price based on the quotes i have for repairs?
2 - Am i right to feel worried about the Vendors behaviour and how they have acted?
3 - Any advice posters can give regarding the gas safe? Our Solicitor hasn't said anything but we have a meeting next week to go through everything where i will raise it.
4 - Any advice based on all of the above that you think would be beneficial.
Very long post but please stay with me. I think i have a dodgy vendor. I'm a first time buyer and buying with my GF.
We put in an offer back in October which was rejected. The house sold but came back on the market. We put in another offer and it was rejected. A few weeks later the estate agent calls to see if we are still interested. We put in another offer but reduced from our initial offer. The vendor rejected it but about 3 days later the estate agent calls up and asks if we are still interested. The vendor accepted (last week of Nov) the offer after a second viewing about a week and a half later.
Since then there has been nothing but shifty behaviour IMO.
First off, the vendor pushed us to complete before christmas (at that point 4 weeks away). We advised that wouldn't be possible and said it would be more realistic to set date for Jan (as you can see we are now in Feb). The Vendor has constantly told us to move faster.
Secondly we found out that the house was still for sale with another agent (after being told it would be removed from sale) even after we had instructed the survey and applied for the Mortgage... naturally i sent a strongly worded email to the EA which got them scrambling but at first the vendor refused to remove it until exchange (unacceptable to me). It was finally shown as SSTC a week after our email now 5.5 weeks after accepting the offer.
Thirdly - We instructed a Home Buyers Survey which came back with a few things including removal of walls and a chimney breast and advised that we make sure planning permission and building regs are in place. It had a huge list of 3's (9 things on there including the chimney breast removal, roof vents, felt roof failing in places, no water proofing in the roof and spray foam insulation, inadequate floor vents, to name a few and the same number of 2's including chimney stack repair, guttering, wood joinery, partition walls, no insulation to the side passage that has been built over and inadequate insulation to the roof and wall ties). The EA already let slip that a previous buyer pulled out once they had the survey completed which worried me but we had already instructed one at this point. I've had phone quotes to do the work and i am looking at about 2k for the serious stuff and probably 1-2 (6k for a new roof) for less serious that can be done over time.
We raised the removal of the chimney and sought building regs certificate and planning approvals from the Vendor in December. The Vendor claims the work was done before they took ownership of the house (i think some of that is a lie) but they corrected the chimney and added supports in October and did not seek building regs approval. I asked for approval a number of times but was told that they were unwilling to get building regs (notwithstanding that its a legal requirement) bue to cost and delays and instead gave me a structural survey. We instructed our solicitor and after a couple of weeks back and forth following searches they have now called the Council in and we await the regularisation certificate.
Fourth - The house has some extension which appear to have planning permission from the 70's. There are other changes to the house that the Vendor claims were completed prior to them owning the property including the central heating. As i said above, i think this is a lie but obviously cannot prove it. I do however, suspect that a new Worcester Bosch Boiler was installed fairly recently. I would say 10 years as my nan has had a similar looking boiler installed in 2009 although it is possible that it was available before then (but cannot prove it until i get back in the house which will probably annoy the EA). The Vendor has drained the system so we cannot turn it on see if it works but they claim to not have gas safe certificates for installation as it was installed before 2004.
Fifth - There is a sewer in the garden which has come up in our search and might have been built over due to extensions. Our Solicitor has highlighted this but the vendor says its not under the extension and that there has never been any requests for access (how would they know if they didn't build the extensions? I didn't notice a manhole on my visit but i wasn't looking particularly at that point)
Seventh - The house was rented out previously and the vendor is unwilling to provide any safety certificates other than electric from 2013. I understand that the Vendor doesn't need to provide this but if i was selling and pressing for a quick sale i'd provide it so it seems odd they won't. I'm guessing the renting wasn't strictly above board and they probably don't have the certificates they need rent it out. I doubt it was even registered with the Council.
Eight - Vendor wants to exchange before the Building Regs comes through but we have refused to do this.
Nine - The house was rented out and the Vendor threatened to withdraw and rent it during the first few weeks whilst we were waiting for a decision on our Mortgage. So trust wasn't high on my part from the start.
Specific questions
1 - Do you think i can negotiate the price based on the quotes i have for repairs?
2 - Am i right to feel worried about the Vendors behaviour and how they have acted?
3 - Any advice posters can give regarding the gas safe? Our Solicitor hasn't said anything but we have a meeting next week to go through everything where i will raise it.
4 - Any advice based on all of the above that you think would be beneficial.
0
Comments
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goodness me, sounds like a whole lotta fun... I would be certainly back for a price reduction.
He didn't take it off the market and 5.5 weeks he still didn't have another offer so he isn't stacked up with options.
I would hang tight and only offer realistically what you would pay after survey
No good him getting gas certificates as he could use a mate so if you want these then arrange yourself
You really are in the driving seat... drop the price and I'd say by quite a bit or walk ,0 -
Thanks.
Apparently whilst it was still on the market they had a cash offer.
In my letter I made it clear that I would recover my costs if they accepted another offer as we made a fair agreement to protect them too in that they could keep it on until We applied for the mortgage... the EA being an EA was poor and said contradictory things in email too (told us it was off the market, then told us no viewings would take place, then admitted viewings had been taking place with their knowledge but with a different agent, then tried to back track on the agreement to say that the agreement was it would come off the market once the survey and solicitor were instructed) and I said i’d take them to the ombudsman for misconduct.0 -
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Interesting to know. I'll speak with my solicitor on Monday and see if i can get a reduction in the price by 4k to cover our repair costs. They are still are pushing to exchange on Monday which I am not comfortable with but on the plus side, Building Reg's was approved today apparently.0
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The vendor accepted (last week of Nov) the offer
First off, the vendor pushed us to complete before christmas (at that point 4 weeks away).Secondly we found out that the house was still for sale with another agent (after being told it would be removed from sale) even after we had instructed the survey and applied for the Mortgage... naturally i sent a strongly worded email to the EA which got them scrambling but at first the vendor refused to remove it until exchange (unacceptable to me). It was finally shown as SSTC a week after our email now 5.5 weeks after accepting the offer.Thirdly - We instructed a Home Buyers Survey which came back with a few things including removal of walls and a chimney breast and advised that we make sure planning permission and building regs are in place. It had a huge list of 3's
That's the most relevant piece of information, yet you've not given it. I can take a guess why...We raised the removal of the chimney and sought building regs certificate and planning approvals from the Vendor in December. The Vendor claims the work was done before they took ownership of the house (i think some of that is a lie) but they corrected the chimney and added supports in October and did not seek building regs approval. I asked for approval a number of times but was told that they were unwilling to get building regs
There's no way of getting any enforcement done now, so it's just down to if it's going to fall down or not. If it was, there'd be big clues. If you're worried, get a structural engineer in.Fourth - The house has some extension which appear to have planning permission from the 70's. There are other changes to the house that the Vendor claims were completed prior to them owning the property including the central heating. As i said above, i think this is a lie but obviously cannot prove it. I do however, suspect that a new Worcester Bosch Boiler was installed fairly recently. I would say 10 years as my nan has had a similar looking boiler installed in 2009 although it is possible that it was available before then (but cannot prove it until i get back in the house which will probably annoy the EA). The Vendor has drained the system so we cannot turn it on see if it works but they claim to not have gas safe certificates for installation as it was installed before 2004.
And, frankly, from your list of other issues with the place, I'd say they're the least issue going. Lemme guess. It looked cheap, and - hey - a slap of paint isn't hard, is it...?Fifth - There is a sewer in the garden which has come up in our search and might have been built over due to extensions. Our Solicitor has highlighted this but the vendor says its not under the extension and that there has never been any requests for access (how would they know if they didn't build the extensions? I didn't notice a manhole on my visit but i wasn't looking particularly at that point)Seventh - The house was rented out previously and the vendor is unwilling to provide any safety certificates other than electric from 2013. I understand that the Vendor doesn't need to provide this but if i was selling and pressing for a quick sale i'd provide it so it seems odd they won't. I'm guessing the renting wasn't strictly above board and they probably don't have the certificates they need rent it out. I doubt it was even registered with the Council.
(What happened to six?)Eight - Vendor wants to exchange before the Building Regs comes through but we have refused to do this.Nine - The house was rented out and the Vendor threatened to withdraw and rent it during the first few weeks whilst we were waiting for a decision on our Mortgage. So trust wasn't high on my part from the start.Specific questions
1 - Do you think i can negotiate the price based on the quotes i have for repairs?2 - Am i right to feel worried about the Vendors behaviour and how they have acted?
If you don't think the house is worth buying, don't buy it.3 - Any advice posters can give regarding the gas safe?4 - Any advice based on all of the above that you think would be beneficial.0 -
But what valuation did it give?
That's the most relevant piece of information, yet you've not given it. I can take a guess why...
I'm not sure what you are implying TBH. I'm not withholding anything... If the survey said it was worth less i wouldn't be here asking any questions. Nonetheless, i can see why it would be useful to you all. It said the house was worth the price we are paying but recommended that we investigate the repairs with professionals and renegotiate based on the cost of the repairs.Can't blame them. Apart from being massively invasive, it'll certainly require work where BR has moved on since it was done, even if it was done to standard at the time.
There's no way of getting any enforcement done now, so it's just down to if it's going to fall down or not. If it was, there'd be big clues. If you're worried, get a structural engineer in.
The work to support the chimney was only conducted in Oct 2018. Therefore, it required building regs and is open to enforcement regardless of when the chimney was removed. In any case they have sought it not and it's approved. But the behaviour still seems odd to me. Maybe it is normal to everyone else, hence why i've posted.All very lovely, but... So what? Again, it's way outside the window for any enforcement of the breach of BR, so the question is just one of whether it was done to a decent standard or not.
And, frankly, from your list of other issues with the place, I'd say they're the least issue going. Lemme guess. It looked cheap, and - hey - a slap of paint isn't hard, is it...?
Not sure what you are talking about. The issue is purely safety but clearly even if it is outside of the enforcement period but recently conducted i would like some indemnity (preferably not out of my pocket) to insure against their failure to secure relevant consents). More importantly, I don't want the roof falling on my head whilst i'm asleep.
There is a misting window that needs replacing and would reopen the window to enforcement or at worst, may discover poor installation that we will need to fix at cost.
The property isn't cheap. It's reasonably priced and probably expensive for its condition. It has a ground floor extension which has increased its value but needs more than a lick of paint. I am under no illusions.And?
And?
(What happened to six?)
Your written tone is disgusting but i'm sure other may have told you this before. In any case...
It potentially shows that they might have cut a lot more corners elsewhere? It is certainly the impression i have anyway if i find out things haven't been conducted in accordance with the legislation. Particularly if you are a landlord with a few properties, these things shouldn't be a surprise to you.So you're now the one delaying exchange.
Obviously, at this point yes as we now have building regs approval but if you read my post properly, building regs was needed for the works and the vendor did not have it.So?
Demonstrates the Vendors behaviours i thought. Maybe you disagree.What did the valuation on the survey say?
Find out the cost and renegotiate.You're buying a house from them, not marrying them. Once you exchange, you need never ever speak to them again.
If you don't think the house is worth buying, don't buy it.
True but equally you are more likely to buy from someone you have some sort of trust with right? Or do people buy a car from the dealer down the road who swapped the spec at the last min?If it makes you feel better, pay a gas engineer to do you a safety certificate.
Indeed this is an option... I just find the behaviour strange but i'm guessing from your comments that you do not or you would act in a similar fashion.Make up your mind if you actually want the house, and - if not - walk away. If you do, get on with it, and stop fretting over trivialities and irrelevances.
I think you miss understood the point of the post but never mind. Thanks for your unhelpful response.0 -
If you perceive there are that many problems, walk away.
You can negotiate for a different price at any time you like but they don't have to accept it.
You're spending a massive amount of money so unless you're happy, don't. Although you might want to do some research on what you can and cant ask the vendor to do in future and what you should and shouldn't be looking for when you buy.Non me fac calcitrare tuum culi0 -
I'm not sure what you are implying TBH. I'm not withholding anything... If the survey said it was worth less i wouldn't be here asking any questions.
...
It said the house was worth the price we are paying
The surveyor said the house is worth the price offered - in the condition the surveyor viewed it.
If I was selling, and you tried to reduce the offer based on that, you would be handed the survey straight back with my finger pointing straight to that bit.There is a misting window that needs replacing and would reopen the window to enforcementThanks for your unhelpful response.
I don't know what else you want to hear. The surveyor says it has issues, but it's priced correctly after taking them into account. If you want a structural opinion, get a structural engineer in. But don't expect the vendor to allow you to do any intrusive checks until you've bought it.
It's time to make your mind up. Do you want this house or do you not want this house? It's the same house you viewed. It's just missing a bit of paperwork that may or may not make the slightest difference, and certainly won't stop it falling down if it's going to.
Whether the vendor was doing the landlording right is irrelevant to your purchase. Whether you like the vendor personally is irrelevant to your purchase.0 -
If you perceive there are that many problems, walk away.
You can negotiate for a different price at any time you like but they don't have to accept it.
You're spending a massive amount of money so unless you're happy, don't. Although you might want to do some research on what you can and cant ask the vendor to do in future and what you should and shouldn't be looking for when you buy.
Thanks that is helpful.
I have done some research so i'm aware that they don't have to provide some of the things i am asking for. Technically they didn't need building regs to sell it but i don't think it was unreasonable to ask for it in the circumstances and i guess that is what this post is about. Is their behaviour reasonable, would my response to their behaviour be unreasonable. The rest is all context of their behaviour.
Equally, if the boiler was installed before 2004 they don't need a gas safe installation certificate. If it was after then they do and cannot provide the paperwork which makes me think it there is a possibility it wasn't installed properly and they are trying to cover it up (my thought process and might be different to other people). I'll take this up with the solicitor though.
I'm a planner and look at it in the same way... If someone told me that they have planning permission but there is no record of it, then they do not have planning permission and should seek permission. If they are selling a house without the relevant paperwork then they need to seek it before i purchase. Notwithstanding the relevant enforcement periods etc.0 -
So there y'go.
The surveyor said the house is worth the price offered - in the condition the surveyor viewed it.
If I was selling, and you tried to reduce the offer based on that, you would be handed the survey straight back with my finger pointing straight to that bit.
Is that notwithstanding the paragraph that recommended re-negotiating on the basis of the cost of the repair? I'm actually interested to know as IMO that is a clear indication to renegotiate but you do not agree.I'm sorry if it wasn't the answer you wanted. But it was the relevant one to all of your points.
I don't know what else you want to hear. The surveyor says it has issues, but it's priced correctly after taking them into account. If you want a structural opinion, get a structural engineer in. But don't expect the vendor to allow you to do any intrusive checks until you've bought it.
No it was your written tone, not that an answer was different to what i wanted to hear. If everyone said they have acted reasonably then fine.It's time to make your mind up. Do you want this house or do you not want this house? It's the same house you viewed. It's just missing a bit of paperwork that may or may not make the slightest difference, and certainly won't stop it falling down if it's going to.
Might impact the resale for some items which, as i said, i'll discuss with the solicitor. However, this response was more useful and helpful thanks.0
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