No LPA(yet)/ Diagnosis of Dementia/ Paying CAre Home Fees

greent

Apologies if this is in the incorrect area of the forum - I couldn't find a true 'fit' and there are some other LPA queries here, so am hoping someone may be able to help....

Background
My Nan moved in with my aunt last year after it was deemed she was too frail to cope living alone. She had multiple chest infections and UTIs.
My aunt placed her in a residential home mid Dec for 2 weeks respite care. She has not left there since and is not going to - no one will have her living with them. It appears that she has accepted this now.

My nan had 6 children - 1 (my mother), 2, 3 (deceased), 4, 5 & 6. Some of them don't speak to others, but they all speak to at least 2 other siblings to some extent.

Whilst at my aunt's my Nan was diagnosed with Alzheimers dementia (a quote from the letter) after memory clinic visits. However, this diagnosis was also made during a bout of recurring UTIs and just after a major chest infection where it was thought she was going to die. This was about 2 weeks before she went into the home (ostensibly for respite)

My nan has not set up a LPA (argh!) Now a diagnosis of dementia does not automatically render you mentally incapacitated. She has agreed to do this (LPA) and the home says she has capacity. Some days are better than others, but she is 89 in a few weeks, so occasional memory lapses are to be expected anyway. We have completed forms and are looking to get a local GP or solicitor to act as the certificate provider. (Obviously if they deem she is mentally incapacitated then it's a case of going to the Court and the LPA route is not applicable)

Pressing Issue
In the meantime, the care home needs to be paid...… My nan is a self-funder for her care. My aunt paid the first bills using my nan's debit card)(the social worker had said that my aunt (no 5) could do this and also use the card in the ATM providing receipts were kept:eek:) The home are also happy for this. The card is now with child no 6 who my Nan wants as an attorney on the LPA (he has all financial paperwork ready for when (if) LPA is registered). The home want him to make the next payment over the phone using my nan's debit card. This seems totally wrong to me. There is no GA or anything with the bank authorising anyone else to sign on the account. However, my nan has willingly told children 1, 2 & 5 the PIN for when they previously took her shopping...… Surely what the home are saying to do is incorrect?

Thanks in advance....

greent (getting greyer by the minute dealing with all this!!)

Yorkshireman99

greent wrote: »

Apologies if this is in the incorrect area of the forum - I couldn't find a true 'fit' and there are some other LPA queries here, so am hoping someone may be able to help....

Background
My Nan moved in with my aunt last year after it was deemed she was too frail to cope living alone. She had multiple chest infections and UTIs.
My aunt placed her in a residential home mid Dec for 2 weeks respite care. She has not left there since and is not going to - no one will have her living with them. It appears that she has accepted this now.

My nan had 6 children - 1 (my mother), 2, 3 (deceased), 4, 5 & 6. Some of them don't speak to others, but they all speak to at least 2 other siblings to some extent.

Whilst at my aunt's my Nan was diagnosed with Alzheimers dementia (a quote from the letter) after memory clinic visits. However, this diagnosis was also made during a bout of recurring UTIs and just after a major chest infection where it was thought she was going to die. This was about 2 weeks before she went into the home (ostensibly for respite)

My nan has not set up a LPA (argh!) Now a diagnosis of dementia does not automatically render you mentally incapacitated. She has agreed to do this (LPA) and the home says she has capacity. Some days are better than others, but she is 89 in a few weeks, so occasional memory lapses are to be expected anyway. We have completed forms and are looking to get a local GP or solicitor to act as the certificate provider. (Obviously if they deem she is mentally incapacitated then it's a case of going to the Court and the LPA route is not applicable)

Pressing Issue
In the meantime, the care home needs to be paid...… My nan is a self-funder for her care. My aunt paid the first bills using my nan's debit card)(the social worker had said that my aunt (no 5) could do this and also use the card in the ATM providing receipts were kept:eek:) The home are also happy for this. The card is now with child no 6 who my Nan wants as an attorney on the LPA (he has all financial paperwork ready for when (if) LPA is registered). The home want him to make the next payment over the phone using my nan's debit card. This seems totally wrong to me. There is no GA or anything with the bank authorising anyone else to sign on the account. However, my nan has willingly told children 1, 2 & 5 the PIN for when they previously took her shopping...… Surely what the home are saying to do is incorrect?

Thanks in advance....

greent (getting greyer by the minute dealing with all this!!)

Using someone else s debit card is not allowed. Either an LPOA is needed or an application to the Cort of Protection that is slow and costly. It is possible the bank will pay direct if asked.

greent

This is my take on it - thank you. I am actually shocked at what the social worker said and then the home have suggested. I have suggested that a complaint is made about the social worker's 'advice' to ensure that it is not given to anyone else!

Brynsam

If your nan has the capacity to make a LPA, she has capacity (albeit on a good day) to give consent for her debit card to be used. I think the advice given by the social worker in this instance has a ring of pragmatism. Has anyone actually asked your nan if she's happy to let this happen?

greent

Brynsam wrote: »

If your nan has the capacity to make a LPA, she has capacity (albeit on a good day) to give consent for her debit card to be used. I think the advice given by the social worker in this instance has a ring of pragmatism. Has anyone actually asked your nan if she's happy to let this happen?

In which case - why can't she just make the payment herself...? - the home don't want this option, I understand

elsien

Yorkshireman99 wrote: »

Using someone else s debit card is not allowed. Either an LPOA is needed or an application to the Cort of Protection that is slow and costly. It is possible the bank will pay direct if asked.

Not neccessarily. If Nan has capacity she can sign a third party bank mandate to allow someone else to support her with the bank account on a temporary basis. Might be worth looking into to see what her bank wouid accept.

Has Nan had any local authority involvement for a needs assessment prior to or since entering the care home? Does she have a social worker - if so, that would be your starting point.
Regardless of pragmatism, Nan is invalidating any protection she might have for her card by giving other people her PIN number.

greent

elsien wrote: »

Not neccessarily. If Nan has capacity she can sign a third party bank mandate to allow someone else to support her with the bank account on a temporary basis. Might be worth looking into to see what her bank wouid accept.

Has Nan had any local authority involvement for a needs assessment prior to or since entering the care home? Does she have a social worker - if so, that would be your starting point.
Regardless of pragmatism, Nan is invalidating any protection she might have for her card by giving other people her PIN number.

I can look into point 1 (with the Spanish bank)

Social worker - one visited my aunt's house when Nan was living there (they were contacted by child no 4 (4 & 5 don't get on - fell out after death of number 3) to ensure Nan was 'safe' and house was clean and appropriate) However, there has been no involvement since home - plus the SW was the one who first said Aunt was ok to use PIN and card and get cash out as long as receipts were kept.


No needs or financial assessment since/ prior to entering care home - this is something I've raised earlier tonight with my mum for her to check into with the home tomorrow.

elsien

It may be ok from a safeguarding point of view but walks all over the bank's terms and conditions.

Ask the Social Worker under Care Act (Review of Care and Support Needs and Support Planning) to contact the Financial Assessment Team at the LA to ask about the procedure for the Local Authority to pay for the home and care fees until a Financial Assessment has been completed to determine if Nan is eligible to self-fund or not. Being in a care home without an assessment to see if she can be supported at home with a care package is a big step without a proper review.

greent

elsien wrote: »

It may be ok from a safeguarding point of view but walks all over the bank's terms and conditions.

Ask the Social Worker under Care Act (Review of Care and Support Needs and Support Planning) to contact the Financial Assessment Team at the LA to ask about the procedure for the Local Authority to pay for the home and care fees until a Financial Assessment has been completed to determine if Nan is eligible to self-fund or not. Being in a care home without an assessment to see if she can be supported at home with a care package is a big step without a proper review.

She has a mtge free (and empty for the last 6 months) home and about 150K+ in the bank, so I can't see that she won't be a self-funder. She didn't want to live by herself any more - she can't walk further than a few metres and then only with a walker - she uses a wheelchair, she has quite bad osteoporosis and a history of falls/ breaks. No downstairs loo (and is doubly incontinent), very steep stairs and a sloping front garden which is like an ice rink in this weather (a mix of tarmac area and smooth concrete (?) path!) However, I read it that a financial assessment would still be a good thing for a bit of future-proofing ?? and needs assessment would highlight any aspect which would be actual nursing care (not sure she needs that for dementia yet and the rest is personal care at the mo, I was told?)

Will get my mum on the case with SW (no one wants to deal with a grandchild when there are 5 adult children ahead of me - and my mum is eldest child)

Apologies for all the questions - but my family seem to be leaving this and passing the buck between them and it needs sorting asap - which I think they are beginning to realise.

Just trying to get a handle on things to cover/ ensure are checked/ done - thank you, everyone

WillowCat

My gran was admitted to a care home in very similar circumstances. She was also a self funder, but the council paid the bill while we were getting her POA set up, and we then paid their bill when the POA was registered with the bank. It took about 8 weeks in all if I remember correctly.

greent

WillowCat wrote: »

My gran was admitted to a care home in very similar circumstances. She was also a self funder, but the council paid the bill while we were getting her POA set up, and we then paid their bill when the POA was registered with the bank. It took about 8 weeks in all if I remember correctly.

That's really handy information, WillowCat - thank you very much for that! :T x