Outfox the Market incompetently or fraudulently continuing to take D/D payments

bzd

Hi all,


I was wondering if anyone else has been having Outfox the Market continuing to take direct debits payments after they've changed to another supplier?


After the announced price increases (not the varied winter payments which I can understand) last year I switched to another supplier as I'm fairly sure OtM are having massive cash-flow problems. The switch seemed to go through fairly quickly, with the energy supply switching on 20 December. I'd had a bill at the beginning of December and was £30 in credit, and another D/D was taken between then and me leaving (so easily covering a month's usage, let alone 2 weeks worth). I left the D/D open as I believe(d) that's needed to get a refund if in credit after the final bill.


Since any customer who is in credit can ask for a repayment at any time I decided to ask for the credit balance to be re-paid, and they could take the final bill payment through the D/D. I was told I'd have to wait until the final bill which could take 8 weeks (from 20 Dec). I don't believe that is true, and was going to query it again only to find that OtM took their (higher winter level) D/D payment at the beginning of January. I immediately told them that I considered that to be a fraudulent transaction and I would like it refunded immediately. The initial response to this was

I can confirm you can claim this back from your bank under the direct debit guarantee in which you will receive it back within 2 working days.

!!!
I asked them to confirm that they were refusing to repay the mistaken/fraudulent payment but they've now justccontinued to reply with saying that as I'm moving it might take up to 8 weeks and they're still waiting for the final read to be confirmed by the new supplier.
I've now got confirmation from the new supplier that they sent the initial meter read to OtM on 22 Dec, and got a confirmation of receipt of that on 28 Dec.


I suspect that OtM are about to go bust, are trying to get as much cash as possible, promising refunds but not intending to pay it, and that after 8 weeks won't have even started to think about repaying.


I've been in touch with my bank to get the January D/D payment refunded (not heard back yet). What are the chances of that happening, and me getting the other over £100 in credit with OtM back?


If you're still reading, well done


bzd

wavelets

bzd wrote: »

Hi all,


I was wondering if anyone else has been having Outfox the Market continuing to take direct debits payments after they've changed to another supplier?


After the announced price increases (not the varied winter payments which I can understand) last year I switched to another supplier as I'm fairly sure OtM are having massive cash-flow problems. The switch seemed to go through fairly quickly, with the energy supply switching on 20 December. I'd had a bill at the beginning of December and was £30 in credit, and another D/D was taken between then and me leaving (so easily covering a month's usage, let alone 2 weeks worth). I left the D/D open as I believe(d) that's needed to get a refund if in credit after the final bill.


Since any customer who is in credit can ask for a repayment at any time I decided to ask for the credit balance to be re-paid, and they could take the final bill payment through the D/D. I was told I'd have to wait until the final bill which could take 8 weeks (from 20 Dec). I don't believe that is true, and was going to query it again only to find that OtM took their (higher winter level) D/D payment at the beginning of January. I immediately told them that I considered that to be a fraudulent transaction and I would like it refunded immediately. The initial response to this was

I can confirm you can claim this back from your bank under the direct debit guarantee in which you will receive it back within 2 working days.

!!!
I asked them to confirm that they were refusing to repay the mistaken/fraudulent payment but they've now justccontinued to reply with saying that as I'm moving it might take up to 8 weeks and they're still waiting for the final read to be confirmed by the new supplier.
I've now got confirmation from the new supplier that they sent the initial meter read to OtM on 22 Dec, and got a confirmation of receipt of that on 28 Dec.


I suspect that OtM are about to go bust, are trying to get as much cash as possible, promising refunds but not intending to pay it, and that after 8 weeks won't have even started to think about repaying.


I've been in touch with my bank to get the January D/D payment refunded (not heard back yet). What are the chances of that happening, and me getting the other over £100 in credit with OtM back?


If you're still reading, well done


bzd

Coincidentally, you are not the first person to make such outrageous and potentially libellous comments.

Plenty more in this existing thread currently about 1/2 way down the page here:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5924617/outfox-the-market-direct-debit-changes

Perhaps my post#1263 therein will assist you too?

Flt._Lt._Biggles

bzd wrote: »

...

I've been in touch with my bank to get the January D/D payment refunded (not heard back yet).

On what basis ? :huh:

Someone else (well another MSE user ID at least) equally misguided was very recently asked the very same question by me, albeit regarding a different supplier

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5934079/economy-energy-refund (post#6)

bzd

wavelets wrote: »

Coincidentally, you are not the first person to make such outrageous and potentially libellous comments.

Plenty more in this existing thread currently about 1/2 way down the page here:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5924617/outfox-the-market-direct-debit-changes

Perhaps my post#1263 therein will assist you too?

I suspect it isn't a coincidence, and that it's happening to multiple people!
Anyway, thanks for the pointer -- I've edited the title, the content merely states what I've already said to Outfox the Market and what I suspect, not that it's going to happen.

bzd

Flt._Lt._Biggles wrote: »

On what basis ? :huh:

Someone else (well another MSE user ID at least) equally misguided was very recently asked the very same question by me, albeit regarding a different supplier

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5934079/economy-energy-refund (post#6)

On the basis that OtM said to me in writing (I quote):

I can confirm you can claim this back from your bank under the direct debit guarantee in which you will receive it back within 2 working days.

That's their confirmation that I can do that.

Flt._Lt._Biggles

bzd wrote: »

I suspect it isn't a coincidence, ....

Me neither .... :rotfl:

Flt._Lt._Biggles

bzd wrote: »

On the basis that OtM said to me (I quote):

I can confirm you can claim this back from your bank under the direct debit guarantee in which you will receive it back within 2 working days.

That's their confirmation that I can do that.

Let me clarify...

On what basis, under the terms of the Direct Debit Guarantee? :huh:

Direct Debit Guarantee

• The Guarantee is offered by all banks and building societies that accept instructions to pay Direct Debits
• If there are any changes to the amount, date or frequency of your Direct Debit the organisation will notify you (normally 10 working days) in advance of your account being debited or as otherwise agreed. If you request the organisation to collect a payment, confirmation of the amount and date will be given to you at the time of the request
• If an error is made in the payment of your Direct Debit, by the organisation or your bank or building society, you are entitled to a full and immediate refund of the amount paid from your bank or building society
  • If you receive a refund you are not entitled to, you must pay it back when the organisation asks you to
• You can cancel a Direct Debit at any time by simply contacting your bank or building society. Written confirmation may be required. Please also notify the organisation.

bzd

Flt._Lt._Biggles wrote: »

Let me clarify...

On what basis, under the terms of the Direct Debit Guarantee? :huh:

TBH I hadn't read it, but you could ask the same question of OtM who confirmed I could.
I would imagine it falls under

If an error is made in the payment of your Direct Debit, by the organisation or your bank or building society, you are entitled to a full and immediate refund of the amount paid from your bank or building society

FWIW the new supplier have also said (again quoted)

In relation to them continuing to take out a Direct Debit for you, I urge you to raise a complaint with them to get this matter resolved. As we have had you on supply since 20/12/2019 and this means they should not be charging you as they are not your supplier

Flt._Lt._Biggles

bzd wrote: »

TBH I hadn't read it, but you could ask the same question of OtM who confirmed I could.
I would imagine it falls under

If an error is made in the payment of your Direct Debit, by the organisation or your bank or building society, you are entitled to a full and immediate refund of the amount paid from your bank or building society

Without implying my admission that any error has occurred, if it was an error this does not necessarily relate to the error being fraudulent, nor incompetence. In fact I would suggest to you if either of those two were involved, I suspect any admission of error to be very unlikley

bzd wrote: »

FWIW the new supplier have also said (again quoted)

In relation to them continuing to take out a Direct Debit for you, I urge you to raise a complaint with them to get this matter resolved. As we have had you on supply since 20/12/2019 and this means they should not be charging you as they are not your supplier

It's correct you should raise a complaint if you have any cause (and it seems you have)

But you will not know if you have been charged by the old supplier for any period after they have not supplied you until you receive a final bill.

Direct Debit Payments are not what you are charged; they are simply a form of payment as the name suggests.

bzd

Flt._Lt._Biggles wrote: »

But you will not know if you have been charged by the old supplier for any period after they have not supplied you until you receive a final bill.

Direct Debit Payments are not what you are charged; they are simply a form of payment as the name suggests.

It hadn't crossed my mind (until now!) that OtM would actually charge me incorrectly in the final bill. Just that they seem to be using me and my D/D to ease their cash flow for as long as they think they can get away with.


I don't think that means that an energy supplier can continue to take the D/D -- which I agree is only an estimate of your monthly usage -- for the two months after you leave them and they claim the new supplier hasn't informed them of the transferring meter read. If you leave them within a month, then one month's estimated usage is sufficient. The final bill should be what tallies things up, in or out of credit.


Incidentally, the emails today that pushed me into actually posting about this mess was:
From OtM:

I have just read your previous emails and just in the process of completing your final bill, I will need your new suppliers to provide your meter reads for the 20th of December. Without this I cannot close your account down and cancel your direct debit.
Please get in contact with your new suppliers so we can close your account on this side.

So I immediately did get in touch with the new supplier who (using some technical data flow codes I'm not 100% sure about) said:

I have checked the industry data flows and can see that a D71 was sent on 18/12/18, this is us sending out the opening meter reads to our DC, and a D86 was received back on 28/12/18. This means that all parties are confirming they have the reads. We are still awaiting a D19 and a request for this was done on 02/01/2019- this is the final process and settlement data and this will complete before the 8 week timescale.

which suggests OtM are "mistaken" about this too, allowing them to delay for as long as they like...


If I was just a regular customer of an energy supplier, and I was a few hundred pounds in credit (and likely to remain so after the next bill), I'm allowed to request that credit amount back aren't I? How long does that normally take? It seems once you've switched supplier they use that as an excuse to take longer!

markharding557

I was wondering if anyone else has been having Outfox the Market continuing to take direct debits payments after they've changed to another supplier?

Cancel the direct debit! This is not needed once you have left, it is not used (they work one way only) for refunds contrary to what some say.
You don't need to pay anything until they produce the final bill based on the readings from your new supplier.


I doubt OFTM have committed fraud but are they incompetent? In my experience with them,very much so!