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Workplace Bullying
Marisco
Posts: 42,036 Forumite
This is a difficult one, without writing pages and pages, but I'll try and keep it brief, and answer questions as and when. I have a friend and former work colleague (I retired, she's still there) Just about the same time as I retired, maybe 2/3 months before, our old boss sold the business to my friends' current boss, this was nearly 9 years ago now. He wasn't too bad to begin with, it was manageable.
About 4 years ago, they moved premises (it's a retail business) we think because of money problems, lower rent etc. Since then things have gone rapidly down hill regarding my friends' employment, we think he is trying to get her to leave. If she leaves voluntarly, she gets no redundancy and he cannot sack her as there is no reason to (she's been there 18 years) and knows she'll take him to an employment tribunal.
She was off work for about 5 weeks last year with stress, she was in a hell of a way, and is rapidly going that way again. I met her today for lunch and she was nearly in tears telling me that he was shouting and bawling at her once again. Unfortunately she is a timid person, who finds it difficult to fight back (unlike myself who'd have had him speaking with a soprano voice by now
) but he wouldn't listen anyway, he'd just shout and intimidate her, if she tried to "fight back" He's put a whiteboard by her desk with "Make me happy, do what I say, when I say it and how I say it" and she has been told to read it every morning! He also has a camera trained on her desk. There are 2 other women working there, who he doesn't bother, but they won't help my friend either.
Now if you've got this far, the obvious question in mind is why not just leave? Full time jobs around here are pretty scarce, she cannot afford to take part time, and is not qualified for anything really, other than retail work. She's 59 this year so would have the added handicapp of age against her. Plus she doesn't see why, after all these years, she should be hounded out of her job.
I just feel so sorry for her that he is trying to "sicken" her into leaving. I've looked on the gov site, but it just says go to your union/HR dept, which obviously doesn't apply in this case. I know him, thankfully I didn't work for him, I'd not have lasted long anyway as I'd have got the sack for insurbordination long since! He is an arrogant SOB, a mysoginist, and just an all round bully!
I was just wondering if anyone has experienced the same or similar and what the outcome was? Especially as it's the boss who's doing the bullying, so there is no one higher up the food chain you can complain to.
About 4 years ago, they moved premises (it's a retail business) we think because of money problems, lower rent etc. Since then things have gone rapidly down hill regarding my friends' employment, we think he is trying to get her to leave. If she leaves voluntarly, she gets no redundancy and he cannot sack her as there is no reason to (she's been there 18 years) and knows she'll take him to an employment tribunal.
She was off work for about 5 weeks last year with stress, she was in a hell of a way, and is rapidly going that way again. I met her today for lunch and she was nearly in tears telling me that he was shouting and bawling at her once again. Unfortunately she is a timid person, who finds it difficult to fight back (unlike myself who'd have had him speaking with a soprano voice by now
) but he wouldn't listen anyway, he'd just shout and intimidate her, if she tried to "fight back" He's put a whiteboard by her desk with "Make me happy, do what I say, when I say it and how I say it" and she has been told to read it every morning! He also has a camera trained on her desk. There are 2 other women working there, who he doesn't bother, but they won't help my friend either.Now if you've got this far, the obvious question in mind is why not just leave? Full time jobs around here are pretty scarce, she cannot afford to take part time, and is not qualified for anything really, other than retail work. She's 59 this year so would have the added handicapp of age against her. Plus she doesn't see why, after all these years, she should be hounded out of her job.
I just feel so sorry for her that he is trying to "sicken" her into leaving. I've looked on the gov site, but it just says go to your union/HR dept, which obviously doesn't apply in this case. I know him, thankfully I didn't work for him, I'd not have lasted long anyway as I'd have got the sack for insurbordination long since! He is an arrogant SOB, a mysoginist, and just an all round bully!
I was just wondering if anyone has experienced the same or similar and what the outcome was? Especially as it's the boss who's doing the bullying, so there is no one higher up the food chain you can complain to.
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Comments
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This is a difficult one, without writing pages and pages, but I'll try and keep it brief, and answer questions as and when. I have a friend and former work colleague (I retired, she's still there) Just about the same time as I retired, maybe 2/3 months before, our old boss sold the business to my friends' current boss, this was nearly 9 years ago now. He wasn't too bad to begin with, it was manageable. - So this person in question is the owner of the business?
About 4 years ago, they moved premises (it's a retail business) we think because of money problems, lower rent etc. Since then things have gone rapidly down hill regarding my friends' employment, we think he is trying to get her to leave. If she leaves voluntarly, she gets no redundancy and he cannot sack her as there is no reason to (she's been there 18 years) and knows she'll take him to an employment tribunal. - Be careful with that assumption, it's always possible to sack someone.
She was off work for about 5 weeks last year with stress, she was in a hell of a way, and is rapidly going that way again. - this would be a good reason to start the dismissal process. I met her today for lunch and she was nearly in tears telling me that he was shouting and bawling at her once again. Unfortunately she is a timid person, who finds it difficult to fight back (unlike myself who'd have had him speaking with a soprano voice by now) but he wouldn't listen anyway, he'd just shout and intimidate her, if she tried to "fight back" - she has no right to 'fight back', nor does he have to shout at her; but he's the owner. He's put a whiteboard by her desk with "Make me happy, do what I say, when I say it and how I say it" and she has been told to read it every morning! - that's not unreasonable, legally speaking. It's like a team motto He also has a camera trained on her desk. There are 2 other women working there, who he doesn't bother, but they won't help my friend either.
Now if you've got this far, the obvious question in mind is why not just leave? -exactly. Full time jobs around here are pretty scarce, she cannot afford to take part time, and is not qualified for anything really, other than retail work. She's 59 this year so would have the added handicapp of age against her. Plus she doesn't see why, after all these years, she should be hounded out of her job. - ultimately the process to get rid of her; if he really wanted to, would be complete in a few months.
I just feel so sorry for her that he is trying to "sicken" her into leaving. I've looked on the gov site, but it just says go to your union/HR dept - Union, not HR department. HR is for the Employer. , which obviously doesn't apply in this case - she should've joined a union. . I know him, thankfully I didn't work for him, I'd not have lasted long anyway as I'd have got the sack for insurbordination long since! He is an arrogant SOB, a mysoginist, and just an all round bully!
I was just wondering if anyone has experienced the same or similar and what the outcome was? Especially as it's the boss who's doing the bullying, so there is no one higher up the food chain you can complain to.
That is really the crux of it. She can put in a grievance; but lets be fair that wont go anywhere, eventually quit citing constructive dismissal; but by that point the business has closed down and phoenixed as something else.0 -
He is the owner, yes. It's not a "team motto" as it's only directed at her, not the others. I've obviously failed to convey what the situation is really like, but thank you for your reply anyway.That is really the crux of it. She can put in a grievance; but lets be fair that wont go anywhere, eventually quit citing constructive dismissal; but by that point the business has closed down and phoenixed as something else.
I was really after more constructive advise/answers insofar as what/who can she see about this matter, as obviously as you say, a complaint to himself would be useless. I cannot believe that people have to put up with this sort of thing with nowhere/no one at all to turn to.
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He is the owner, yes. It's not a "team motto" as it's only directed at her, not the others. I've obviously failed to convey what the situation is really like, but thank you for your reply anyway.
I was really after more constructive advise/answers insofar as what/who can she see about this matter, as obviously as you say, a complaint to himself would be useless. I cannot believe that people have to put up with this sort of thing with nowhere/no one at all to turn to.
Sorry, but bad behaviour isn’t unlawful.
Unions are set up to help with this sort of thing, so not being a member is really the biggest issue.
Constructive dismissal is her only real chance; though it needs to go through an internal process first.
My main concern with that is; it’s a small company and easier to restart than risk paying out. - correct me on the size though if I’m wrong0 -
I'm not convinced that you are hearing the full tale here; I suspect you are only privy to one side of the argument and don't know what is motivating this boss...
Not to support bullying like, but there's a possibility that your friend is blowing fairly minor things out of proportion and that, in fact, their attitude is the root cause of the problem.
Also a possibility that the company don't actually want your friend to go (cost/hassle of recruiting someone else) and so the disciplinary process isn't followed too rigidly but the manager still feels the need to try and increase performance hence this awkward situation.
Ultimately, I may be right or wrong and you two may be right or wrong. But I always like to ask myself, "Why me?". Why are they going after your friend and none of the others? Figuring out that answer can sometimes be the way to solve a problem like this. Could always speak to boss too.
The only other things I could suggest are maybe:
- GP to help with any potential health issues
- ACAS
- CAB maybe?
- Union she is a member
- Solicitor
Aside from that she's on her own pretty much...0 -
Your friend is absolutely barmy to be holding on for redundancy...it isn't an investment on her part.This is a difficult one, without writing pages and pages, but I'll try and keep it brief, and answer questions as and when. I have a friend and former work colleague (I retired, she's still there) Just about the same time as I retired, maybe 2/3 months before, our old boss sold the business to my friends' current boss, this was nearly 9 years ago now. He wasn't too bad to begin with, it was manageable.
About 4 years ago, they moved premises (it's a retail business) we think because of money problems, lower rent etc. Since then things have gone rapidly down hill regarding my friends' employment, we think he is trying to get her to leave. If she leaves voluntarly, she gets no redundancy and he cannot sack her as there is no reason to (she's been there 18 years) and knows she'll take him to an employment tribunal.
She was off work for about 5 weeks last year with stress, she was in a hell of a way, and is rapidly going that way again. I met her today for lunch and she was nearly in tears telling me that he was shouting and bawling at her once again. Unfortunately she is a timid person, who finds it difficult to fight back (unlike myself who'd have had him speaking with a soprano voice by now) but he wouldn't listen anyway, he'd just shout and intimidate her, if she tried to "fight back" He's put a whiteboard by her desk with "Make me happy, do what I say, when I say it and how I say it" and she has been told to read it every morning! He also has a camera trained on her desk. There are 2 other women working there, who he doesn't bother, but they won't help my friend either.
Now if you've got this far, the obvious question in mind is why not just leave? Full time jobs around here are pretty scarce, she cannot afford to take part time, and is not qualified for anything really, other than retail work. She's 59 this year so would have the added handicapp of age against her. Plus she doesn't see why, after all these years, she should be hounded out of her job.
I just feel so sorry for her that he is trying to "sicken" her into leaving. I've looked on the gov site, but it just says go to your union/HR dept, which obviously doesn't apply in this case. I know him, thankfully I didn't work for him, I'd not have lasted long anyway as I'd have got the sack for insurbordination long since! He is an arrogant SOB, a mysoginist, and just an all round bully!
I was just wondering if anyone has experienced the same or similar and what the outcome was? Especially as it's the boss who's doing the bullying, so there is no one higher up the food chain you can complain to.
She should look to move and put her efforts into that because frankly things are not going to get better until one of her or the boss leaves...Don't trust a forum for advice. Get proper paid advice. Any advice given should always be checked0 -
my betting is as you put it...I'm not convinced that you are hearing the full tale here; I suspect you are only privy to one side of the argument and don't know what is motivating this boss...
..... but there's a possibility that your friend is blowing fairly minor things out of proportion and that, in fact, their attitude is the root cause of the problem.
Also a possibility that the company don't actually want your friend to go (cost/hassle of recruiting someone else) and so the disciplinary process isn't followed too rigidly but the manager still feels the need to try and increase performance hence this awkward situation.Don't trust a forum for advice. Get proper paid advice. Any advice given should always be checked0 -
Why does he want her to leave?
Is the business not making enough money, so that shedding a member of staff will make it profitable, or allow him to employ someone else for less money? Does he want to move a friend/relative/lover into her role? Is she underperforming in his eyes, but not enough for him to successfully dismiss her without comeback? He could have dismissed last year because of her sick record and would probably been able to win if she brought an unfair dismissal claim.
There is no-one to turn to. Her employer appears not to have contravened employment legislation.
Sorry but there is no lifeline to throw to her.If you are querying your Council Tax band would you please state whether you are in England, Scotland or Wales0 -
It sounds like an unpleasant situation for her.
I would suggest that you encourage her to look for a new job. It may not be easy, but it is likely to be the healthiest thing for her to do there is no guarantee that her employer will ever offer her redundancy, and finding another job is unlikely to get easier if she leaves it longer and is more stressed or unwell.
If she wants to try to address the current situation, as a first step, she could contact ACAS , or pay for a first consultation with an employment lawyer.
However, I suspect that she may find it hard to prove that his behaviour is so bad as to give her legal grounds to claim constructive dismissal, particularly if the other employees are not willing to support her or back her up.All posts are my personal opinion, not formal advice Always get proper, professional advice (particularly about anything legal!)0 -
Shouting at her, particularly in front of other staff, could be grounds for a constructive dismissal claim, but it really does depend on the specifics of each case and it's a difficult claim to win.
I think she should be looking for another job. She's got one, so she's in a strong position and nothing to lose. Sometimes the best revenge is just moving on with your life to bigger and better things.
She should start making a record of each instance of what she feels is bullying. Comments he makes to her, at what date and time, if there are witnesses. If she brings a claim in future it will massively help her case if she can give specifics and if there are witnesses.
If she has legal cover with her home insurance they might be able to give her advice, or as others have said CAB or ACAS.“I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled.” - P.G. Wodehouse0 -
Thank you all for your replies. Just a couple of points, she is not given to exaggeration, I worked with her for 10 years and she is a good worker. It is not the type of place where you can "up your productivity". Unfortunately I cannot say too much in case it's identifyable.
It is perfectly possible that he wants to get rid of her for monetary reasons, but doesn't want to pay for it. As to why he has it "in for her", possibly because she's from the "old regime" and gets on well with long standing commercial customers, he's more into "cutting corners" and he has more than a whiff of "Del Boy" about him. Anyway thanks again and I will tell her what you have all said when I next see her
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