Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

SouthLondonUser

westernpromise wrote: »

I'm deadly serious. If being in a big bloc is so valuable where's the pressure from others to be in it?

You have just made my day! So you're saying that being in the EU is not so valuable because countries from other continents are not in it? Really? :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

westernpromise wrote: »

No, disingenuous. The status quo of 1975 was not that of 1985, or 1995, or 2005, or today.

And the UK of 1975 was not that of 1985, or 1995, or 2005, or today. Could a UK voter in 1975 have realistically predicted what would have happened to the country decades from then?

If your point is that the EU can change over the next decades, well, yes, of course, anything can change. In case I wasn't clear enough, I wasn't saying the EU will never change from today. My point is different: remaining means the status quo, which is not likely to change materially in the near future. In the distant future? Who knows? Claiming you must vote X because you 'know' Z will happen over the next decades is laughable. Again, you're welcome to 'believe' that, but there is no more reason to 'believe' that than to 'believe' the exact opposite.

westernpromise wrote: »

The Remain claim was that we could stay in the EU unaltered from its 2016 status, which overlooked that this status changes and will continue to do so.

Source? I don't think anyone ever said: "Vote Remain because nothing will change for the next 50 years". At least I don't remember. If my recollection is wrong, whoever said that was clearly an idiot and it would have taken less than half a brain to realise.
Again, the point is not that nothing will change, ever. The point is that no material changes are on the horizon. So remain = status quo in the near future. In the distant future, who the hell knows?

westernpromise wrote: »

Yes. Things like the Single European Act and the euro are pretty clear signals of it happening. All changed the status quo. The EEC became the EC became the EU. Black is white, right?

Are you familiar with the difference between near future and distant future? Did any of those changes happen overnight, to everyone's surprise? Or did they take a long time and there were clear sign they would happen? Did German Chancellor Helmut Kohl wake up one day in January 1992 and announced: "Surprise! Next month we'll all sign the Maastricht Treaty"?

westernpromise wrote: »

You didn't notice the EEC - EC - EU progression then? Let's be quite clear about this. One day there was the EEC. A later day there was the EC.

Yes. An overnight change. Which no one had anticipated. A big unannounced surprise, overnight, just like that. Right?

westernpromise wrote: »

You've done no such thing. You have asserted, ludicrously, that there is no difference in the positions of Remainers, even when given them verbatim. This also goes to why you lost, so you should pay attention.

Maybe we speak different languages.
You continue to confuse what people want with the meaning of remain.
Again, was, I don't know, Nick Clegg saying: people, voting remain means MORE integration, that's what will happen for sure, because of X Y Z, while, I don't know. Gordon Brown was saying: voting remain means LESS integration, that's what will happen for sure, because of A B C? Hint: no!!!

westernpromise wrote: »

They have done so. Remainers have made predictions about the effect of Brexit on the economy over not 20 but the next 30 years (https://metro.co.uk/2018/10/25/brexit-will-cost-young-people-up-to-108000-each-8075012/). Did you laugh when they did so? Please link to any comments where you said, I'm a Remainer but guys, this stuff makes us look stupid because nobody knows what will happen in 20 years. You never did that, did you?

Actually, you are wrong. I did criticise such predictions. This was in private conversations, so you are welcome not to believe me. I'll survive.

westernpromise wrote: »

I said there were other alternatives, such as having the commissioners elected, which in fact gives power to the electorate.

I thought you meant by the MEPs. You mean directly? If so, I think that would be a terrible idea, for the same reason why no major democracy, as far as I know, elects its ministers directly.

westernpromise wrote: »

You just can't grasp that people unpersuaded by Remain are not automatically Brexiters, so you default to the kind of feeble arguments that did not win you the referendum. In the ludicrous assertions and denials of obvious reality there was nothing, literally nothing, to choose between either side.

Oh, dear

Tromking

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Well at least that's one honest statement from a Brexiteer! :rotfl:

Of course, had the side of the bus said "Vote Leave and 3 years from now we'll still be in the EU, two Prime Ministers will have been toppled, the £ will have crashed, Boris will talking about shutting down parliament to get a No Deal Crash-Out Brexit, and a big chunk of UK car manufacturing will be shutting up shop" you'd have lost...

Yep.
It’s all about the timing.
You willing yet to concede that the risk to Scotland economically of leaving the Union still dwarfs the risk to Scotland of leaving the EU whilst still part the of U.K. family?

Thrugelmir

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

Was the NHS bus a judgement call or a lie?

Bottom line is that the NHS needs to cope with an ageing population. No politician is ready to say how it will be funded or manned in the years ahead. Then there's social care provision to be considered as well. Taxpayers should have a say in where their hard earned money gets spent.

adindas

Love Anne Widdecombe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXrZv0fJmS4

“That’s what you do here, that’s why we are going. Nous allons, wir gehen, we’re off.

SouthLondonUser

https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1146727959799226368?s=20

David Lammy replied:
Anne Widdecombe just compared Britain leaving the EU to "slaves" rising up "against their owners". It is impossible to explain how offensive and ahistorical it is for you to equate my ancestors tearing off their chains with your small-minded nationalist project. Shame on you.

buglawton

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Well at least that's one honest statement from a Brexiteer! :rotfl:

Of course, had the side of the bus said "Vote Leave and 3 years from now we'll still be in the EU, two Prime Ministers will have been toppled, the £ will have crashed, Boris will talking about shutting down parliament to get a No Deal Crash-Out Brexit, and a big chunk of UK car manufacturing will be shutting up shop" you'd have lost...

While we're on the topic of honest statements, how would the referendum result have looked if on the side of bus if it'd said this?

"Vote Leave and 3 years from now you'll have been right royally shafted by a Tory government that will do everything in its power to sabotage Brexit"

adindas

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1146727959799226368?s=20

David Lammy replied:
Anne Widdecombe just compared Britain leaving the EU to "slaves" rising up "against their owners". It is impossible to explain how offensive and ahistorical it is for you to equate my ancestors tearing off their chains with your small-minded nationalist project. Shame on you.

Who cares David Lammy.
UK send £350m a week the EU (before rebate, and small percentage come back to UK).

That is what the people who voted Brexit party want them to do, to stand up against the EU.

Nous allons, wir gehen, we’re off.

cogito

phillw wrote: »

The quote I heard was 'Lots of people don’t like your daddy, do you know that?', it's certainly true. JRM having children is a far worse crime against humanity

Despicable. You've hit a new low.

Arklight

Tromking wrote: »

I love how the ‘The Bus’ continues to trigger the Remoaner Class even three years after the event. In those three years I’ve seen articles suggesting that it was a grossly inaccurate claim and also saying that it was entirely possible to fund the NHS to those levels with the help of the repatriation of the U.K. EU contributions. You pays yer money I suppose!
From my recollection the text on the Bus was quite cleverly worded, and lest we forget also that there’s been a couple legal challenges that have been lost to people that have taken umbrage to the perceived ‘lie’ on the bus.
Although the bus issue has become totemic to Remoaners, to me it has more than a hint of sour grapes about it.
On the Turkey issue, I distinctly remember Cameron pre-Brexit bigging up Turkey’s accession to the EU, only to regret it big-time when challenged about it during the referendum campaign.
Remain referendum campaign was pants.

Of course it was. It was a cross party alliance led by the Tories. The most incompetent, corrupt, self serving, dishonest, least fit to govern, political party in Europe.

And now you and your chums are about to select an even worse leader than David Cameron.

Then everything will be fine.

gfplux

Tromking wrote: »

I love how the ‘The Bus’ continues to trigger the Remoaner Class even three years after the event. In those three years I’ve seen articles suggesting that it was a grossly inaccurate claim and also saying that it was entirely possible to fund the NHS to those levels with the help of the repatriation of the U.K. EU contributions. You pays yer money I suppose!
From my recollection the text on the Bus was quite cleverly worded, and lest we forget also that there’s been a couple legal challenges that have been lost to people that have taken umbrage to the perceived ‘lie’ on the bus.
Although the bus issue has become totemic to Remoaners, to me it has more than a hint of sour grapes about it.
On the Turkey issue, I distinctly remember Cameron pre-Brexit bigging up Turkey’s accession to the EU, only to regret it big-time when challenged about it during the referendum campaign.
The Remain referendum campaign was pants.

Still using Remoaner? I have not read everything in this thread lately but I am pretty sure the negative and nasty twists of the word Brexiter have dropped out of use.