Used Electric Cars - Advice & Reccomendations

Steve_KK

foxy-stoat wrote: »

Dont buy a EV to save the plant or save money as its likely you will be doing neither

Electric vehicles are mis-sold as Zero Emission vehicles, which they are not. They should clearly be sold as Zero Tailpipe Emission vehicles. There are emissions related to their manufacture, running and disposal.
I would suggest investigating the cost of replacing batteries, as these currently have a relatively finite life and could prove to be a component that would render a vehicle uneconomical to repair should they fail.

Regards,
Steve

ElefantEd

I bought a Nissan Leaf (6 months old) about 4.5 years ago. Done 120,000 miles. It cost £15k. Cost saving = 10p/mile compared with similar sized petrol engined car ie. £12k. Not to mention free VED and much lower maintenance costs.


As for the batteries failing, well the same applies to any engine. For the record I don't think there have been many examples of EV batteries wearing out, though obviosuly even the oldest isn't all that old.


As for zero emissions, as we use Ecotricity, which is 100% renewable, the overall effect is also zero CO2 emitted, not just at the tailpipe. Yes there are emissions related to manufacture etc, just as with any car. But this is a spurious argument really, as these are small compared with the overall emissions of an ICE car.

almillar

Annoyingly, much of the extra range in higher spec models comes not from the battery and drive train being better than because manufacturers intentionally hobble the "cheap" versions with software downgrades.

That sounds like utter rubbish to me. Care to provide any evidence? All I can think of is a small number of Teslas where they had upgraded battery packs, and it was cheaper to sell, was it the S 60D, with the 75D battery with capacity disabled.

Electric vehicles are mis-sold as Zero Emission vehicles, which they are not. They should clearly be sold as Zero Tailpipe Emission vehicles

Well, they are 'zero tailpipe' so that would be a lie.

There are emissions related to their manufacture, running and disposal.

Same for an ICE car then. My dad has a Leaf and solar panels. If he charges from them, is his car not Zero Emmission?

I would suggest investigating the cost of replacing batteries, as these currently have a relatively finite life and could prove to be a component that would render a vehicle uneconomical to repair should they fail.

Finite? Compared to flammable gas? No. It looks like they'll last the life of the vehicle, then have a nice life as stationary storage. Big market for this waiting for batteries to fail. Are you a bit out of date? I would suggest you should investigate the life and cost of batteries.

Gurj247

foxy-stoat wrote: »

I ran the numbers with a Renault Zoe Vs Corsa 1.3 cdti - price per mile was a few pence dearer with the EV but I would need to spend £3000 more to buy it.

That was based on 13,000 miles with £3K budget for an ICE and £6K for the EV.

Dont buy a EV to save the plant or save money as its likely you will be doing neither - buy one because you want to and it will be the future of motoring.

That is good to know, regarding an ICE vehicle, I won't need one as between us we have other vehicles in the household and potentially look to part ex an existing car as part of a deal (if not sold privately)

Guys_Dad

I have had a BMW i3 range extender for a year. My wife bought a Renault Zoe brand new in march but it suffered a main battery failure 3 months later and we rejected it and replace it with a 30kwh Nissan Leaf. So we have some experience in electric vehicles.

You won't get a 200 mile range car for your money. The best you can get is a 94ah i3 REX which will give you c100 miles plus before needing them REX. In actual fact, to keep some electric juice available, make that 80 miles before charging on switching to petrol.

The Zoe and Leaf are good for 140 miles on average as weather and speed are major factors.

The Leaf is the best for comfort, the i3 for speed, fun and making long journeys with the petrol back up.

I wouldn't touch an old Zoe on battery lease for anything other than a non essential 2nd car, certainly not one I needed for work. Renault do not have the support infrastructure for electric vehicles. Our 18 reg Zoe was off the road for 9 weeks before we rejected it because Renault didn't have a replacement battery available and out of stock world wide with no estimated availability. In addition, trained ev technicians are like hen's teeth so long delay times.

I3 are expensive and the REX is likely to stay expensive as they have stopped making them for the UK market because of changes to government grants and road tax would push them to over £4th and there are no other ev cars with a petrol back up on the market. Other hybrids have petrol engines backed up by electric - a different technology.

If I was in your position, I would probably stick to a petrol or diesel for now or if you want to embrace electricity, then a proven hybrid such as a Toyota.

As a last point, the premium you have to pay for ev can be demonstrated by looking at cost new for a Kia Soul ev or petrol model. Same with their Niro or Hyunda Kona range.

Steve_KK

ElefantEd wrote: »

As for zero emissions, as we use Ecotricity, which is 100% renewable, the overall effect is also zero CO2 emitted, not just at the tailpipe. Yes there are emissions related to manufacture etc, just as with any car. But this is a spurious argument really, as these are small compared with the overall emissions of an ICE car.

Until all the energy we consume in this country is low emsssion (zero emission I beleive is an unobtainable goal) charging EVs from the national grid is producing emissions no matter who you are paying for the energy. However, choosing to use a company using low emission generation techniques is a good start.

"Manufacturing a mid-sized EV with an 84-mile range results in about 15 percent more emissions than manufacturing an equivalent gasoline vehicle. For larger, longer-range EVs that travel more than 250 miles per charge, the manufacturing emissions can be as much as 68 percent higher." - Google "uscusa manufacturing emissions as part of whole life emissions"
This 2015 report claims it is mostly due to the materials and fabrication of the lithium-ion batteries. It also compares to ICEs and estimates depending on the vehicle types it takes between 4,900 to 19,000 miles until the extra manufacturing emissions are offset. However, it isn't clear if this includes the end of life emissions for either vehicle type. Potentially hard to get statistics for EVs as they should mostly still be within their lifetime.

almillar wrote: »

My dad has a Leaf and solar panels. If he charges from them, is his car not Zero Emmission?

How about the emissions from the tyres and the brakes? Granted an EV should use less friction material as regenerative braking should be used, but still will be causing emissions.

almillar wrote: »

Finite? Compared to flammable gas? No. It looks like they'll last the life of the vehicle, then have a nice life as stationary storage. Big market for this waiting for batteries to fail. Are you a bit out of date? I would suggest you should investigate the life and cost of batteries.

I would suggest that the vehicle as a whole is capable of outlasting the batteries. Take a look at the number of classic and vintage vehicles that have been maintained and can still be used. While not necessarily the same technology how many people have a 10 year old mobile phone with the original battery still working? The point I was trying to make is that currently the technology behind batteries is still evolving and current EVs are at the cutting edge and therefore will have weaknesses. Yes there probably is a big market waiting for the failed batteries, since the raw materials used within them are also finite, just like, as you pointed out, flammable gas is. If you have some links to educate me on the life and cost of batteries please share to this thread.

jeepjunkie wrote: »

Can't find a badge on the car or some where in the manual that says zero emission? Other makes may do.

You don't quote what car that is but the Nissan Leaf website states Zero Emission* (small print *while driving) - from the Nissan website

jeepjunkie wrote: »

But then look at all the marketing on the back of stinking filthy diesels e.g BlueMotion, Greentech etc

Granted and we should be complaining about this too.

jeepjunkie wrote: »

And I have no reason to doubt that my EV will last as long as any ICE I've owned.

True, but it will be interesting to see how many are still in use, 20, 30 or 100 years time! Hopefully the technology will become cleaner and the batteries not use as many nasty and raw materials so everyone can benefit.

Regards,
Steve

Steve_KK

Guys_Dad wrote: »

I have had a BMW i3 range extender for a year. My wife bought a Renault Zoe brand new in march but it suffered a main battery failure 3 months later and we rejected it and replace it with a 30kwh Nissan Leaf. So we have some experience in electric vehicles.

A great balanced post using some actual experience to back up the recommendations.

I can add that I have limited i3 experience having worked for a BMW dealership for a short period. The dealership was tight and would not supply drivers with de-icer, so on one frosty morning a customer collecting a vehicle had an extended wait for their car as it was parked behind 2 others, the front car being an i3. I unlocked the i3 and turned on the heater to start it defrosting and then did the same to the 2 cars behind it. Going back to the i3 straight after the car had shut itself down and stopped defrosting, which it kept on doing, taking an age before I could safely move it.
This isn't a dig at the i3, as I'm sure other EVs would behave in a similar way. Needless to say when I explained the the BMW Consultant why his customer had an extended wait for their vehicle we were finally provided with some de-icer!

Regards,
Steve

Steve_KK

jeepjunkie wrote: »

Surely that also applies to my bike [disc brakes] which I cycle daily...

Indeed, but again a bike is a lighter vehicle, so the emissions will be lower. You will personally produce more emissions by cycling compared to other forms of transport!

jeepjunkie wrote: »

I think most of us would far happier if our heavily polluted cites were free from the immediate pollution from exhausts and the associated noise of ICE engines.

This targeting of ICE often removes focus from other areas. The London Underground is potentially more polluted than the streets above! Our homes are full of pollutants too and this should have some focus. We need to reduce emissions from transport as part of a wide program of lowing emissions and we should not be targeting zero emissions. A useful target is realistic and achievable.

Regards,
Steve

almillar

Until all the energy we consume in this country is low emsssion (zero emission I beleive is an unobtainable goal) charging EVs from the national grid is producing emissions no matter who you are paying for the energy. However, choosing to use a company using low emission generation techniques is a good start.

And solar panels at home? Ecotricity are committed to provide all their electric from renewables. As a total. IE. if they use 1MW of electric, they have to source 1MW from renewables.

How about the emissions from the tyres and the brakes? Granted an EV should use less friction material as regenerative braking should be used, but still will be causing emissions.

What emmisions? Are you literally talking about rubber and dust? If so, as you say, there is less of BOTH than most ICE cars - EV tyres are usually a harder tyre for less rolling resistance. You're really clutching at straws here.

I would suggest that the vehicle as a whole is capable of outlasting the batteries. Take a look at the number of classic and vintage vehicles that have been maintained and can still be used.

Vintage cars are different from the mass transport we're talking about. Vintage cars aren't economically viable, and could be written off several times over, if they were just a simple means of transport, when something goes wrong with them. And whilst you're on about emmisions, check those out for vintage vehicles! How many timing belts, spark plugs, engine rebuilds have they been through?!

While not necessarily the same technology how many people have a 10 year old mobile phone with the original battery still working?

Plenty. If it's Lithium Ion, it likely is the same tech. Plenty of 10 yr old laptop batterys going strong too. And if a 'cell' in an EV battery fails, it can be replaced individually, the whole pack isn't wrecked.

True, but it will be interesting to see how many are still in use, 20, 30 or 100 years time!

You do realise most ICE cars don't make it to 20?!

I unlocked the i3 and turned on the heater to start it defrosting and then did the same to the 2 cars behind it.

You can do that from an app without going near the car. Was there any actual charge in the battery? I've never been provided with de-icer in any car I've bought.

The London Underground is potentially more polluted than the streets above!

It runs on electric so I'd imagine the system itself is relatively clean.

DoaM

almillar wrote: »

Ecotricity are committed to provide all their electric from renewables. As a total. IE. if they use 1MW of electric, they have to source 1MW from renewables.

I didn't realise that technology had evolved so far that energy companies could target the flow of electricity from their generators directly to their customers.