Should I have to accept the sofa back

marcarm

It works for both, the buyer can claim either INR or unauthorised, but the seller has protection if they can prove the item was posted.

I think we are talking about the same thing, but it's just who funds the refund

If they can prove, paypal will reimburse the buyer, if they cannot then the seller will have to fund the refund.

I do agree the buyer would be foolish to try, but as you can see from the other recent new thread about the phone, if reading this stops one person from being scammed then it's worth it.

unholyangel

marcarm wrote: »

It works for both, the buyer can claim either INR or unauthorised, but the seller has protection if they can prove the item was posted.

I think we are talking about the same thing, but it's just who funds the refund

If they can prove, paypal will reimburse the buyer, if they cannot then the seller will have to fund the refund.

I do agree the buyer would be foolish to try, but as you can see from the other recent new thread about the phone, if reading this stops one person from being scammed then it's worth it.

I think what lunatic is suggesting is that as it will be a chargeback dealt with by the originating bank, they are not limited to showing proof of delivery to defend against that chargeback claim - it is only paypals seller protection which relies on proof of delivery.

marcarm

I think they are referring to an eBay case, they might be closed on looking at the messages, but I am referring to a PayPal case.

PayPal do not look at what messages, videos, letters, certificates, Morse code or semaphore. Seller protection is only granted with online proof of delivery.

Anyway, this is now derailing the thread so I will bow out now

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

What I'm saying is there are three types of cases:

1) The buyer may open a non-receipt request on eBay, if the seller has something in the eBay messages from the buyer showing they collected the item the seller may defend the claim

2) The buyer may open a non-receipt case with Paypal, Buyer Protection does not cover collected items and the seller may defend the case

3) The buyer may contact their card provider/bank and reverse the transaction, this is known as a chargeback which will open a case for unauthorised used in the Paypal resolution center. For this Paypal require proof of postage to defend such a claim under Seller Protection which a seller won't have for a collection sale.

I am not suggesting people accept Paypal for collection items nor denying the risks of doing so but it is important to understand the distinction between the 3 above.

To quote the original post I replied to again

marcarm wrote: »

if she opened an item not received case in ebay, the ONLY thing paypal look at is online proof of delivery, without that the buyer is getting a refund.

This is all 3 put together which boils down to an answer of no hope.

Yes people will buy desirable things like phones and raise a chargeback, these people deliberately set out to steal the item.

There are also amateurs, chancers and normal people who may be disappointed with the item and feel it's easy to claim non-receipt than go to the trouble of returning and these people may go down the route of options 1 or 2 above.

MSE threads often come up in Google when people are looking for answers to problem and someone may stumble across a thread like this when they have an eBay or Payal INR case rather than a chargeback, assume there is no hope and lose their money when there may have been the option to defend the claim.

soolin

hollydays wrote: »

If you are a high spice eating household it may well smell of that.
Ring and ask ebays advice on 0800 358 3229

The best way to contact ebay is to log into your account and use the contact us system (try all variables regardless of how little they relate to your query) until you trigger the phone number of call back facility- both these are free. As it links via your account it is also faster and more direct. If they are busy the call back system is a good one as well.

Going back to the problem, this could go several ways, many of which have been covered.

As a private seller you do not have to offer a change of mind return, however buyer having stated an 'issue' with the item could trigger a 'not as described' complaint and private sellers are not immune to them.This probably wouldn't be an issue with cash on collection, but having accepted paypal here it rather clouds the issue.

Normally on the ebay board we caution against fighting a SNAD claim as if buyer wins before seller refunds the item remains with buyer and seller may struggle to get it back. However in this case I think I would have a stab at defending it on the basis it was inspected and collected, however I would argue this on the phone and try and get the case closed in sellers favour rather than let it time out when basically a BOT just finds for the buyer automatically.

The issues regarding a possible fraudulent or dodgy paypal claim have been covered. I agree that it might well be possible to defend an item not received claim (although it is not guaranteed) but would be nervous about any SNAD claim or unauthorised use of card claim both of which I fear the seller could lose. The SNAD claim though would be interesting as buyer would have to prove item was returned to seller before any refund would be made.

I think with all the possible scenarios this is not a clear cut case at all.

EDIT I have removed part of my post (it can be seen as it was quoted) as it is incorrect.

hollydays

soolin wrote: »

Sorry I do just need to pick up on this as it is wrong and not good advice on a money saving site!

Do NOT use this number it looks as though it is one of the medium rate chargeable ones and as you get a long wait if you call 'cold' it could cost a lot of money!

http://customerserviceshelps.co.uk/ebay-customer-service/

The only safe and free way to contact ebay is to log into your account and use the contact us system (try all variables regardless of how little they relate to your query) until you trigger the phone number of call back facility- both these are free. As it links via your account it is also faster and more direct.

Going back to the problem, this could go several ways, many of which have been covered.

As a private seller you do not have to offer a change of mind return, however buyer having stated an 'issue' with the item could trigger a 'not as described' complaint and private sellers are not immune to them.This probably wouldn't be an issue with cash on collection, but having accepted paypal here it rather clouds the issue.

Normally on the ebay board we caution against fighting a SNAD claim as if buyer wins before seller refunds the item remains with buyer and seller may struggle to get it back. However in this case I think I would have a stab at defending it on the basis it was inspected and collected, however I would argue this on the phone and try and get the case closed in sellers favour rather than let it time out when basically a BOT just finds for the buyer automatically.

The issues regarding a possible fraudulent or dodgy paypal claim have been covered. I agree that it might well be possible to defend an item not received claim (although it is not guaranteed) but would be nervous about any SNAD claim or unauthorised use of card claim both of which I fear the seller could lose. The SNAD claim though would be interesting as buyer would have to prove item was returned to seller before any refund would be made.

I think with all the possible scenarios this is not a clear cut case at all.

It's an 0800 freephone number

It's free..

askmeaboutsofas

This is the weirdest thing. Why is the buyer offering to clean the sofa that she's also planning to return to you? Why wouldn't she want to keep it after going to the trouble of cleaning it?
I would expect someone saying "I can clean this myself to remove the sell" would next be asking you for a partial refund to cover the cost/inconvenience of cleaning it themselves. Are you certain that's not what they're after?
There is another alternative. They may have already steam cleaned it to remove the smell, and damaged the fabric while doing so. For that reason OP I would be inclined to refuse this offer of a free cleaning, or at least request photos showing it's condition now. You can do a lot of damage with a steam cleaner!


Personally, if it was me selling a secondhand sofa, I would offer to accept the return on the basis that it's returned in the exact same condition as it left. If the buyer says she's already cleaned it I would tell them that I can't take it back as it's not in the same condition. You may have a fight on your hands if this goes to PayPal/eBay dispute, so make sure at every stage to communicate through eBay messages so that they have a record of what is happening. It's up to you to decide which is worth more - the sale price of the sofa, or your time, effort and potentially bad eBay feedback in dealing with this.

peter_the_piper

If they clean it and pretend to remove the ""smell"" the op won't have much of a leg to stand on as they can't prove there was not a smell to start with. Buyer being sneaky and has just changed mind imho.

unholyangel

peter_the_piper wrote: »

If they clean it and pretend to remove the ""smell"" the op won't have much of a leg to stand on as they can't prove there was not a smell to start with. Buyer being sneaky and has just changed mind imho.

Its a private sale - it only needs to match its description. Therefore unless the description said "it doesn't smell of spices" then it matches its description.

Then you have the issue that it is for the party alleging breach to prove their claim. Otherwise I could allege you owe me £20,000 for unpaid goods and you would have to prove you didn't.

Even on the premise of it being a consumer contract and therefore requiring the goods to be of satisfactory quality:

(4)The term mentioned in subsection (1) does not cover anything which makes the quality of the goods unsatisfactory—
(a)which is specifically drawn to the consumer’s attention before the contract is made,
(b)where the consumer examines the goods before the contract is made, which that examination ought to reveal, or
(c)in the case of a contract to supply goods by sample, which would have been apparent on a reasonable examination of the sample.

peter_the_piper

I'm sure you are absolutely right legally but its Ebay and Paypal we are talking about here.:D