PCN - Legal Definition?

rjhoare

Hi, I have read the Newbies section of the Forum and I am just wondering if there is a actual legal definition of 'parking' when a PCN is issued?

In some service stations there is very limited parking available for heavy goods vehicles and so often it is a case of waiting for a driver to move on before one is able to park and indeed in some larger service stations it is the same situation - thus we are not 'parked' particularly if we continue to driver around looking for a space of just sit there with our foot on the brake pedal.

Surely a parked vehicle of any size is if the handbrake is on and the engine is switched off?

If a PCN is issued without any photographic proof, other than the Entrance and Exit ANPR - which will only show the time or entry and exit - is that proof enough of 'parking' rather than just simple proof that the vehicle entered and left the site. Have the car park operators shot themselves in the foot/feet by not proving a car was parked (by showing that it was physically parked in a bay), or are they just trying to save money by not using cctv cameras instead just relying on the ANPR?

Just a thought.

Coupon-mad

If a PCN is issued without any photographic proof, other than the Entrance and Exit ANPR - which will only show the time or entry and exit - is that proof enough of 'parking'

Yes. But it's challengeable.

Parking is defined in comments by the Judges in the transcripts of:

- Jopson v Home Guard (you can find that Appeal case on the Parking Prankster's website).

- and as an obiter comment by Lord Neuberger, in Moncrieff v Jamieson (I think).

rjhoare

Thanks Coupon-mad for your reply.

ECP have provided to POPLA their 'case file' but whilst showing various photo's of parked vehicles (probably as examples) they only provided images of my registration number, front and rear. So my sole defence really is that there was no proof that I was parked, ie that stopped the vehicle, switched off the engine (or otherwise) just that I entered and exited the site. Surely the burden of proof is on the claimant?

Coupon-mad

No. Unless the timing was 10 minutes on site or less, you will lose at POPLA, so doing an appeal on that basis was doomed. Sorry to break it to you. It's lost already.

But search the forum for POPLA lost Euro and read why it's OK to then do nothing. You are lucky it's only ECP!

rjhoare

To be honest I knew I was/am in default................... but the PCN was issued in August and I just wanted to waste their time and money!!

beamerguy

rjhoare wrote: »

Surely a parked vehicle of any size is if the handbrake is on and the engine is switched off?

If a PCN is issued without any photographic proof, other than the Entrance and Exit ANPR - which will only show the time or entry and exit - is that proof enough of 'parking' rather than just simple proof that the vehicle entered and left the site. Have the car park operators shot themselves in the foot/feet by not proving a car was parked (by showing that it was physically parked in a bay), or are they just trying to save money by not using cctv cameras instead just relying on the ANPR?

Just a thought.

You will be parked even though sat in a car with engine running

CCTV is not applicable, ANPR simply works on "in" and "out" and pictures must prove this.

Signs must say that ANPR is used and there is a grace period which is approx 10 mins on in and then 10 mins on out

Who is the parking company ?

Coupon-mad

No-one said you were in default, nor that you will be paying when you lose.

Have you searched the forum yet to be ready to join the 'POPLA lost' crew all happily ignoring ECP?

rjhoare

Just read "POPLA lost Euro" and I had a similar case a couple of years back which died a slow death, despite letters from numerous "debt collection companies" all with the same address of Gladsthites!!

rjhoare

Hi beamerguy - ECP are the company!
But they only allow 10 minutes grace on the site I was parked on.

Coupon-mad

Makes no odds. There's nothing to discuss now, and you might well have lost the POPLA appeal anyway even if you'd added more meat to the bones of appeal.

Come back and confirm when POPLA has been lost and that you will NOT be paying.

rjhoare

OK! I will also join the POPLA Lost Crew!!