Parents died some time apart - now need probate for first?

richlee

Hi,
I can't find an answer to this, hard even to frame the question. TIA for any info.

Mum passed in 2009, married to her partner and joint ownership of the house. Probate wasn't necessary for her at the time & everything went to him. Partner now passed in 2018, and we've obtained probate for him.

The house has now been sold / under offer, and we're told by the conveyancer that we need probate for Mum - rather than simply Death Certificate and proof of ownership - in order to proceed. I'm filling in the relevant IHT205_2006 forms, which are asking for details of the deceased's (Mum's) own assets, property value and so on. Naturally this info no longer exists, and any assets would have passed to her partner after her death.

Is this all correct, and if so then what should I include for these unknown (likely zero-to-low) figures? Also - how to value the house, which was purchased some years earlier and at the time of Mum's passing was unknown?

Thanks
Rich

Mojisola

richlee wrote: »

Hi,
Mum passed in 2009, married to her partner and joint ownership of the house. Probate wasn't necessary for her at the time & everything went to him. Partner now passed in 2018, and we've obtained probate for him.

We had exactly the same situation with my parents - the house was owned as joint tenants and most of their accounts were joint so probate wasn't needed.

We didn't have a problem selling the house after Dad died - he was the sole owner and Mum's estate was irrelevant to the sale.

richlee

Thanks for the quick reply.

Looking deeper this wasn't sole ownership:
On reading Mum's Will it seems that her half of the house was held in trust pending any of several circumstances (including her partners death), then to be sold.

I'm wondering if this is what makes the probate necessary?

Rich

getmore4less

Who are the current legal owners on the land registry?

richlee

Mum & husband - "tenants in common in equal shares".

...& Mum's share is handled by trustees according to her will.

Flugelhorn

I think the fact that the house was TIC is the reason why probate is needed

Mojisola

richlee wrote: »

Mum passed in 2009, married to her partner and joint ownership of the house. Probate wasn't necessary for her at the time & everything went to him. Partner now passed in 2018, and we've obtained probate for him.

richlee wrote: »

Looking deeper this wasn't sole ownership:
On reading Mum's Will it seems that her half of the house was held in trust pending any of several circumstances (including her partners death), then to be sold.

In that case, 'everything' didn't go to her partner.

It sounds as if a lifetime interest was given so that her partner could stay in the house but that someone else has actually inherited.

You need to get the precise details of her will and the trust.

richlee

Yes, you're dead right @Mojisola - I hadn't read the entire docs at that point. So thanks for your comments - def helped me sort out the steps to take.

Rich

getmore4less

richlee wrote: »

Mum & husband - "tenants in common in equal shares".

...& Mum's share is handled by trustees according to her will.

Only probate for partner should be needed to deal with the legal title and get the house into the correct names or sold.

The trust only deals with the beneficial ownership.

There are quite a few threads on here and on the property board about this where the land registry rep clarifies the situation on which grants are needed.

The latest was only days ago.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=75216432&postcount=28

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=75218248&postcount=38


There should still be a form A restriction, providing someone is appointed to act with with them the executor of the partner can still deal with the property.

It will depend on the trust(check), most likely a IPDI, this will mean that the beneficial interest for IHT/CGT purposes stays with the spouse along with any transferable nil rate band which makes things easier.


You will need to go back to the conveyancer to ask why they think probate for the previous death is needed.

It should not be to process the sale of the property.

Land_Registry

As getmore4less posts the legal ownership will have passed to the sole surviving registered owner, her partner, on your Mother's death.

To deal with the registered legal ownership of property following the sole surviving owner's death you would need probate for him but only evidence of her death, namely the death certificate.

The 'trust' you mention and how their beneficial ownerships were dealt with can impact but very much worth asking the solicitor to clarify why they believe probate for your late Mother is required

Note - one other aspect to consider is that IF there is a form A restriction registered, perhaps to protect the 'trust'/wills, then that can impact on any sale IF there is just a sole executor appointed by the late partner's probate. However I doubt if probate would be required for your late Mother to resolve that issue but again something to clarify if necessary
If there were two or more executors named then the form A restriction would not catch the sale (Transfer)

Yorkshireman99

Land_Registry wrote: »

As getmore4less posts the legal ownership will have passed to the sole surviving registered owner, her partner, on your Mother's death.

To deal with the registered legal ownership of property following the sole surviving owner's death you would need probate for him but only evidence of her death, namely the death certificate.

The 'trust' you mention and how their beneficial ownerships were dealt with can impact but very much worth asking the solicitor to clarify why they believe probate for your late Mother is required

Note - one other aspect to consider is that IF there is a form A restriction registered, perhaps to protect the 'trust'/wills, then that can impact on any sale IF there is just a sole executor appointed by the late partner's probate. However I doubt if probate would be required for your late Mother to resolve that issue but again something to clarify if necessary
If there were two or more executors named then the form A restriction would not catch the sale (Transfer)

It sounds to me as if the conveyancer might be out of their depth as far as the consequences of trust or beneficial ownership is concerned. Likewise the OP.