parking fine- civil enforcement ltd

Kezzie123

[FONT=&quot]Hi [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I have read the newbie posts and a number of other threads including the recent popla appeals thread, all of which have been hugely helpful. I am still struggling to write my appeal as the blue text template in the newbies thread doesnt quite match my circumstances (the paragraphs about a ticket machine and about over stays) and wanted to ask for some further advice (if thats ok) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I was issued a Parking Charge Notice via post from Civil Enforcement Limited for parking at my GP. My research suggests this firm are very "litigious" and are likely to issue against me. The requirements of the 'parking contract' are that you are a legitimate visitor to the practice and that you input your VRN into the touch screen ipad things inside the practice- its free to park and there is no maximum parking limit. I definitely entered my registration (I always do and havent had an issue before) so all I can think of is that I may have mixed two letters up. Of course, I have no way to proof this as the touch screen confirms a permit has been issued but doesnt give any kind of physical receipt.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The GP practice have given me a letter to confirm that I attended an appointment at the time and date in support of my appeal but have given me this with a cover letter basicaly saying that as I (allegedly) did not enter my number plate, in their experience my complaint is not likely to be successful.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Am I within my rights to request in the appeal that they provide proof of the data from the machine? ie. placing the burden of proof on them to prove I did not enter the VRN? I dont want to shoot myself in the foot here as if they come back and its clear that I did enter my VRN but I did it incorrectly is this more evidence for them to prove I breached the contract? I was thinking if it proved I entered it largely correctly (first 4 digits were definitely correct) then I can say that it was human error and that I didnt breach the contract?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Also having read the newbie thread, I understand that as they are registered with BPA and this was a postal PCN that this is essentially a notice to the keeper- so does it make a difference if I admit to being the driver? As they can pursue me regardless as the keeper- right? (the GP letter states my name and that I attended the appointment).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I feel like its a long shot compared with the successful appeals I have read where people have a ticket to show how long they parked for/that they paid/that they made an honest error with the VRN. I cant show anything because the ipad situation. Other that this,my appeal grounds are limited as the car park was signed properly (although the £100 fine bit was in small letters which is not very obvious!!), it states they use ANPR, and may contact the DVLA to request the keepers details and it states you need to register for a permit on the touch screen). These are the main grounds for appeal I have seen successful in the POLA thread.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Sorry if creating a new thread is not the right thing to do, I'm new here. If there is another thread that you think answers my question then please do direct me there and I will have a read but those I have read seem not to relate to the ipad (except one but the ipad wasnt clearly advertised but this one does say it on the sign).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I really appreciate your time and expertise [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Thanks[/FONT]

KeithP

I have only read the first paragraph of your post but am wondering why you think the "One Size Fits All" blue text template doesn't fit your circumstance.

Can I suggest that the vehicle's keeper sends that blue text template appeal unchanged - no additions or alterations necessary?

waamo

The blue text appeal matches your circumstances perfectly. The initial appeal is merely to obtain a POPLA code. Half the time CEL don't even read it.

Umkomaas

Also having read the newbie thread, I understand that as they are registered with BPA and this was a postal PCN that this is essentially a notice to the keeper- so does it make a difference if I admit to being the driver? As they can pursue me regardless as the keeper- right? (the GP letter states my name and that I attended the appointment).

Yes, they can pursue the keeper, but they need all their ducks in a row to transfer liability. There is absolutely no advantage in revealing the driver's identity - not least because that opens the driver up to potentially greater charges than is possible in law to apply to the keeper.

You are well overthinking this. You've clearly done lots of research and have gained a good understanding of the process - I wish the other 95% of posters who come here would have done similarly before posting - but really the process is quite straightforward and should be followed.

While no one can guarantee the ultimate outcome - but I'd say that from those who've followed our advice right the way through their CEL case, I've never seen one victory for CEL.

From time to time, CEL on seeing a forum template initial appeal cancel at the first hurdle as they know that to win against the forum will involve them in much work that they might not want in order to chase down £100 ...... and off they go looking for lower-hanging fruit.

No guarantees, but we will help you through this.

The_Deep

The GP practice have given me a letter … in support of my appeal but … that as I (allegedly) did not enter my number plate, in their experience my complaint is not likely to be successful.

You could well lose a PoPLA appeal, but imo , were they to take this to court, they might struggle mightily to convince a judge that your heinous crime so damaged them that they were entitled to £100 to compensate them. Many judges consider not entering a VRN a trifling matter, and the Law does not concern itself with trifles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_minimis

Does the GP surgery have a feedback page? If so mention the matter on it, and complain to your MP about the PPC.

It is the will of Parliament that these scammers be put out of business. Hopefully that will take place in the near future. The Bill has passed through the HOC without hitch, and goes to the Lords soon. In the meantime involve your MP, the poor dears are buckling under the weight of complaints about these scammers. Read this one which I wrote earlier

This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of alleged contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors. Is has been suggested by an MP that some of these companies may have connections to organised crime.

Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, (especially Smart}, and others have already been named and shamed in the House of Commons as have Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each week), hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned. They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

The problem has become so widespread that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers.

Sir Greg Knight's Private Members Bill to curb the excesses, and perhaps close down, some of these companies passed its Third Reading in late November, and, with a fair wind, will become Law next year.

All three readings are available to watch on the internet, (some 6-7 hours), and published in Hansard. MPs have an extremely low opinion of the industry. Many are complaining that they are becoming overwhelmed by complaints from members of the public. Add to their burden, complain in the most robust terms about the scammers.

MistyZ

The keeper attended the appointment. If the GP's letter is required at some point, it won't identify the driver. My car is small but I can still get up to 4 people in it.

The GP practice are being a bit pessimistic and should perhaps take more responsibility for the way their car park is 'managed'. Their rider about not expecting too much suggests it's nothing whatsoever to do with them whereas in fact a fussy touch screen seems a really, really bad idea at a place where many are likely to be elderly / distressed / unwell in all sorts of ways and yet have no means of checking whether they have entered the correct reg.

I reckon you should write a letter of complaint to the practice demanding that they do take responsibility for the highly unsuitable arrangement and get the charge cancelled ASAP. Hopefully you're okay but they will have patients who are on their last legs and need a parking charge like a hole in the head! Just ain't right!

And send the blue template as well, of course.

Kezzie123

Umkomaas wrote: »

From time to time, CEL on seeing a forum template initial appeal cancel at the first hurdle as they know that to win against the forum will involve them in much work that they might not want in order to chase down £100 ...... and off they go looking for lower-hanging fruit.

No guarantees, but we will help you through this.

Thanks Unkommas



I like the idea of scaring them off with a forum template but the bit I'm worried about is:


[FONT=&quot]"- If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.

- If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner. If you fail to evidence the actual grace period that applies at this site or suggest that only one period applies, this will be disregarded as an attempt to mislead. In the absence of evidence, it will be reasonably taken to be a minimum of twenty minutes (ten on arrival and ten after parking time) in accordance with the official BPA article by Kelvin Reynolds about 'observation periods' on arrival being additional and separate to a 'grace period' at the end."[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]These bits doesnt apply as there was no ticket machine or overstay so its completely irrelevant but if I cut this then theres only a couple of lines left! Do you think I can remove the bit about the ticket machine and instead and here add in the request that they provide the data from the ipad?
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[FONT=&quot]I apreciate that CEL are going to completely ignore this but I wanted to use the same appeal to POPLA to save me some time later. I really want the POPLA appeal to be strong so it is successful so that I can avoid all the court drama.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Thanks for all of you that took the time to read my post and post a helpful response. I will write another letter to the GP practice manager and emphasise the stress aspect as advised.
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[FONT=&quot]The worst thing is that I had three appointments that week (yes I'm in great health at the minute ) so if I wasnt thinking clearly and put the number plate in wrong , three more of these bad boys will be coming in the post!!!!![/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Thanks all
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KeithP

At least four people here have suggested you send the template appeal unchanged.

It is entirely your choice - you can either send it unchanged or change it as much as you like, or do something entirely different.

Decision time eh?

Do what you like.

Umkomaas

I apreciate that CEL are going to completely ignore this but I wanted to use the same appeal to POPLA to save me some time later.

That's nothing like a POPLA appeal. You need to spend some time reading post #3 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky to see what should be included and how POPLA appeals are laid out. The POPLA Decisions sticky is also a very informative resource too.

There are very few short cuts I'm afraid.

Ralph-y

as with all the above ..


to get this cancelled early you have 2 choices .....


1: get the GP to cancel this



2: get a popla code and do an appeal approved by the forum wise owls.


CEL will some times fold when they see forum help , but ... but do not rely on this



Ralph:cool:

waamo

The blue template is used to get a POPLA code. It is not a POPLA appeal. It's nothing like a POPLA appeal. Not even remotely.

If you used it you would lose.