Bailiff advice...

CIS

Herbie21 wrote: »

On the subject of 'vulnerability', I have already pointed this error out to CAB in meetings so I am surprised that they are continuing to misled the public into believing that a person may be considered 'vulnerable if they:



This is complete nonsense. Paragraph 77 of the The Taking Control of Goods Regulations: National Standards provides that the following MAY be considered 'vulnerable':

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/353396/taking-control-of-goods-national-standards.pdf




Nowhere in that list does it state that a person may be considered 'vulnerable' if they HAVE CHILDREN.

I was going to say similar. Too many think vulnerability is an absolute argument but it's very subjective and down to the council and enforcement agents to decide. Each and every case is different and sites (there are many) which give people incorrect information regarding vulnerability don't help.

nebakanezer

Herbie21 wrote: »

As many on this forum will know, my 'day job' (for the past 13 years) has been advising the public on matters regarding bailiff enforcement. Those that know me will also know that I am extremely passionate about the subject of vulnerability.

I have recently published analysis of six Local Government Ombudsmen's reports where the LGO make the point very clear indeed that evidence of vulnerability must be provided.

Another subject that I am passionate about is the Notice of Enforcement. It was only 4 years ago that bailiff regulations were overhauled and the position now, is that before a visit can be made, a Notice of Enforcement MUST be issued to the debtor. A compliance fee of £75 is added to the debt at this stage.

Crucially, the Notice of Enforcement invites the debtor to contact the enforcement company to set up a payment arrangement. This will avoid a personal visit being made and most importantly, will avoid an enforcement fee of £235 being added to the debt.

Did you contact Phoenix on receipt of the Notice of Enforcement to set up a payment arrangement?

Did you provide 'evidence' of your wife's vulnerability to Phoenix?

Was the evidence provided on receipt of the Notice of Enforcement?

When the personal visit was made, did your wife answer the door? Did she allow the enforcement agent into your home?

Hi, I had contacted Phoenix regarding the letters, I had ‘evidence’ but was awaiting what I thought was what the council needed which was confirmation of PIP, which arrived the day the bailiffs came. My wife was alone for a very brief period whilst I took may daughter to school and the carer was on the way. She answered the door and let them in.

I contacted Phoenix again 2 days prior to the visited but admittedly at this point had not provided evidence (there is an awful lot of it).

nebakanezer

Vulnerability is subjective to people who don’t care to understand what devastation mental health issues can cause, there are plenty of people still stuck in the dark ages regarding severe illnesses such as bipolar disorder. I can’t remember if I mentioned that my wife also had a hysterectomy shortly after the manic phase of her illness, just weeks after discharge from a mental institution, you couldn’t make it up honestly, but that’s a whole other story.

The hysterectomy added to how unwell she was becoming as the next phase of the bipolar episode took over (the depression). I did not want her to have the surgery at this time but due to politics I had no say in the matter.

nebakanezer

Thank you for all your helpful comments. It isn’t easy to fully explain the situation on a forum. Even sending a simple email was not straight forward when my wife was at the height of her illness. I’m just going to have a chat with my local councillor to see if he will at least consider some of my points.

As I keep saying, I’m not interested in ‘getting away with it’ or getting any money refunded or anything like that. I just think there could be better things in place for certain situations. And much better resolutions.

I was at a friends house once who had not paid their tv licence and a bailiff came. They set up a direct debit and they have paid ever since. Phoenix were disgusting, I don’t care what anyone says.

CIS

Vulnerability is subjective in that legislation cannot agree what it is to set up a formal definition.



People aren't saying that vulnerability doesn't apply in this case, what they are saying is that it is not an absolute that can be set in stone and every case has to be looked at. What is vulnerable in one case may not be in another.


One of the big problems (and like Herbie I deal with council tax on a daily basis and spent over a decade in council tax recovery) is that everyone is told to say 'I'm vulnerable' and the genuine cases often get lost amongst the rest. It can take a lot of effort at times to get someone to take notice of your case.

nebakanezer

CIS wrote: »

Vulnerability is subjective in that legislation cannot agree what it is to set up a formal definition.



People aren't saying that vulnerability doesn't apply in this case, what they are saying is that it is not an absolute that can be set in stone and every case has to be looked at. What is vulnerable in one case may not be in another.


One of the big problems (and like Herbie I deal with council tax on a daily basis and spent over a decade in council tax recovery) is that everyone is told to say 'I'm vulnerable' and the genuine cases often get lost amongst the rest. It can take a lot of effort at times to get someone to take notice of your case.

Thanks again. I’m not entirely sure really what I’m getting at even myself. This whole year has just been on massive shock to me. I’ve worked all my life and never done anything wrong. I come from a caring and loving family, and perhaps I had a little too much faith in humanity. I absolutely hate the thought of this happening to people like my wife after everything she has been through, but such is life....

Herbie21

CIS wrote: »

One of the big problems (and like Herbie I deal with council tax on a daily basis and spent over a decade in council tax recovery) is that everyone is told to say 'I'm vulnerable' and the genuine cases often get lost amongst the rest.

In relation to 'vulnerability, this is what the Ministry of Justice stated in paragraph 4.4.4 of the 'One Year Review' of the Taking Control of Goods Regulations:

During the stakeholder engagement process, the enforcement agents and creditors both mentioned a perceived increase in vulnerability claims. The perceptions of practitioners as to the reasons were:

Some enforcement agents perceive that improvements in awareness have increased the number of vexatious claims of vulnerability, claiming they are often sent identical template letters which can be downloaded from forums and websites that advise people on how to put off enforcement action.

I hope in the next few days to post an analysis of Local Government Ombudsman's decisions on the subject of 'vulnerability' in relation to bailiff enforcement.

Overwhelmingly, the advice from the Ombudsman is that if a debtor considers that he is 'vulnerable' he would need to firstly provide evidence to support his claim (to vulnerability); and secondly, he would need to explain how his vulnerability affects his ability to DEAL WITH THE DEBT.

I am assuming that the debtor is you (as opposed to your wife). Nonetheless, from what you have written, I have no doubt at all that if evidence had been provided to Phoenix regarding your wife's quite obvious vulnerability, they would have referred your account to their 'in house' Welfare Department. You were not to know this. By the same token, I don't consider that there has been any fault in how Phoenix enforced the debt.

Although my advice may be too late to help you and your wife, I hope it will help other 'vulnerable' debtors...and their families.

nebakanezer

Herbie21 wrote: »

In relation to 'vulnerability, this is what the Ministry of Justice stated in paragraph 4.4.4 of the 'One Year Review' of the Taking Control of Goods Regulations:




I hope in the next few days to post an analysis of Local Government Ombudsman's decisions on the subject of 'vulnerability' in relation to bailiff enforcement.

Overwhelmingly, the advice from the Ombudsman is that if a debtor considers that he is 'vulnerable' he would need to firstly provide evidence to support his claim (to vulnerability); and secondly, he would need to explain how his vulnerability affects his ability to DEAL WITH THE DEBT.

I am assuming that the debtor is you (as opposed to your wife). Nonetheless, from what you have written, I have no doubt at all that if evidence had been provided to Phoenix regarding your wife's quite obvious vulnerability, they would have referred your account to their 'in house' Welfare Department. You were not to know this. By the same token, I don't consider that there has been any fault in how Phoenix enforced the debt.

Although my advice may be too late to help you and your wife, I hope it will help other 'vulnerable' debtors...and their families.

Thanks, this all makes sense, and as you say, unfortunately it is too late for me. Due to the nature of this illness it is all consuming and I had so many things to do. I had thought I was on top of things with the council and was awaiting ‘evidence’ as the council had instructed.

I was also awaiting letters but every day is a fight with this illness. Below is the email I sent to Phoenix.....

Hi,

I think there has been some miscommunication regarding this matter. My wife has been extremely unwell this year and I have notified the council regarding our outstanding council tax bill, and why we fell behind. This should not have been passed to collections. My wife was sectioned earlier this year and has been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, we are awaiting confirmation of severe mental impairment from dwp to fill out a second form (I have already sent one to the council).

My wife is under 24 hour supervision as she is at high risk of suicide. Please look into this matter for us and please do not send anyone to the address as it would have very serious implications. I will contact the council again to see why this has happened.

Many thanks

nebakanezer

Interestingly, when the bailiffs were here I called the council and they claimed they had not heard anything from me. I kept saying I was waiting for the PIP confirmation which they had instructed me to do, but in a very condescending voice, the man from the council kept saying I had not sent in my income and expenditure form. Now, when a loved one is attempting suicide and you are trying to protect your children and give them some quality of life, income and expenditure forms are not top of the list..... however..... I was certain that I had done it as I had done everything I had been asked to do. I have just found the letter from the council as receipt of that form!

nebakanezer

In stark contrast to all this, our energy and water companies have literally fallen over themselves to help us. They have not had much in the way of ‘evidence’ but the compassion they have shown is something I won’t forget.