Structural Engineer sent an additional invoice with no warning

MouseTrap

Hi all, hope you can help

We are having work done on our house and the structural engineer has sent us a bill for just shy of a grand completely out of the blue.

The invoice is for a redesign of the calculations which was necessary due to an error made on the architectural drawings (they misplaced the chimney). Both the architect and the engineer had visited the house prior without spotting this very obvious error. We had already paid the original engineer's fees in full.

When the error became obvious and we called the engineer to revise calculations, there was no mention of a fee whatsoever, and certainly no fee was agreed. It seems like he may be chancing it a bit here, especially as it seems like a huge bill for correcting an error. The redesign also took place around a month ago, and there has been no mention of any fee until the invoice arrived today.

Can anybody advise what my rights are in this situation? Can a professional just charge you a fee which you didn't even know was to be incurred? Furthermore, since the redesign was only necessary because of errors made in the first place by the architect and engineer both, does this have any impact on the situation?

Thanks in advance

EachPenny

MouseTrap wrote: »

Can anybody advise what my rights are in this situation? Can a professional just charge you a fee which you didn't even know was to be incurred? Furthermore, since the redesign was only necessary because of errors made in the first place by the architect and engineer both, does this have any impact on the situation?

What does your contract with the engineer say? Does it say they will carry out additional work for free if a third-party makes an error? The engineer will work off the architects plans and not necessarily assume they are wrong.

The reasonableness of the size of the additional fee will depend on the amount of work required. If the chimney error throws all the previous work out, then the engineer will need to start from scratch with a completely new design. It might not be as simple as putting different numbers into the same calculations.

The key is what your contract says....

MouseTrap

Thanks for your reply. We do not have a contract with the engineer, they were appointed by the architect. All we have from them is an email with the following:

We have reviewed the drawings that you have forwarded and looked at the house on streetview and believe that we will be required to fulfil the following scope of service:

1. To receive the various Architectural drawings and to familiarise ourselves with the proposals by way of a site visit and structural inspection.

2. To create a structural layout and to prepare structural calculations and designs for the following items:

· Rafters, purlins, flat roof, floor and ceiling joists, stairwell trimmers, binders and all structural carpentry items relative to the new construction.

· Steel beams and their associated bearings and loadbearing masonry supports.

The designs will encompass the new roof and dormers, the new walls and the second floor.

Our information will be overmarked onto copies of the Architectural drawings and issued via electronic media in a form suitable for pricing, serving Party Wall Notices if required, submission under the Building Regulations and with sufficient information to enable specialist suppliers/sub-contractors to prepare appropriate details etc.

3. To provide reasonable telephone and e-mail support during the design period.

For these levels of involvement we look towards a fee of £XXX subject to VAT. Services not described above including any support of the contractor during the works would be subject to separate agreement.

Worth noting that their recent invoice is pretty much the same amount as the original fee we paid so as per your comment they probably had to completely re-do the calculations. However the fact that their original calculations were completely not fit for purpose is another matter...

Le_Kirk

MouseTrap wrote: »

Thanks for your reply. We do not have a contract with the engineer, they were appointed by the architect. All we have from them is an email with the following:

I would suggest that the architect should have received the invoice. Who paid the original invoice for the engineer's work?

teneighty

I would say that if the redesign has been caused by an error on the original plans then the cost should be borne by whoever made that mistake, architect and/or engineer.

However, it is unfortunate that you went direct to the engineer rather than via the architect. If it was the architect's fault you have given the engineer a direct instruction to undertake the redesign and should probably bear the cost otherwise the architect may have been able to change the design without the need for the structural redesign work.

I also cannot fathom why the erroneous omission of a chimney should cause the complete redesign of all structural elements including all roof and floor timbers and all steel beams.

I would have a chat with the engineer and the architect and see if they cannot be more reasonable.

MouseTrap

Le_Kirk wrote: »

I would suggest that the architect should have received the invoice. Who paid the original invoice for the engineer's work?

I'm fairly sure we paid them directly, I'll have to check my bank statements.

MouseTrap

teneighty wrote: »

I would say that if the redesign has been caused by an error on the original plans then the cost should be borne by whoever made that mistake, architect and/or engineer.

However, it is unfortunate that you went direct to the engineer rather than via the architect. If it was the architect's fault you have given the engineer a direct instruction to undertake the redesign and should probably bear the cost otherwise the architect may have been able to change the design without the need for the structural redesign work.

I also cannot fathom why the erroneous omission of a chimney should cause the complete redesign of all structural elements including all roof and floor timbers and all steel beams.

I would have a chat with the engineer and the architect and see if they cannot be more reasonable.

We did go via the architect, who instructed the engineer to do revised calculations. Does this help our case?

The missing chimney was directly over where they put the staircase, so had to be redesigned. The beam structure was very different to the original plans also. We have 4 beams instead of 1 (which also cost us a fair whack in extra steel!)

I will be having a chat with both engineer and architect shortly, I just wanted to understand my position a bit better before I make that call. So thanks very much to all posters the advice is very helpful.

stator

This comes down to who your contract is with.

If the contract is with the architect who subcontracted to the engineer, then it's the architect's problem

If you have two separate contracts then it's your problem.

comeandgo

MouseTrap wrote: »

Thanks for your reply. We do not have a contract with the engineer, they were appointed by the architect. All we have from them is an email with the following:


. However the fact that their original calculations were completely not fit for purpose is another matter...

And that is not their fault. Why would you not think you would have to pay them for work coming from an error not of their doing? It will be you that has to pay the bill but I'd try very hard to get this back from the architect but it may be they have a clause regarding errors.

MouseTrap

comeandgo wrote: »

And that is not their fault. Why would you not think you would have to pay them for work coming from an error not of their doing? It will be you that has to pay the bill but I'd try very hard to get this back from the architect but it may be they have a clause regarding errors.

The engineer is also at fault. They carried out a structural inspection as part of the original fees, and failed to notice the error.

EachPenny

MouseTrap wrote: »

The engineer is also at fault. They carried out a structural inspection as part of the original fees, and failed to notice the error.

I don't think you would be able to claim that. As you said:-
"1. To receive the various Architectural drawings and to familiarise ourselves with the proposals by way of a site visit and structural inspection."

There is nothing in that saying the engineer is responsible for checking the accuracy of the architect's work.

As I suspected though, if the original design only required one beam, and the revised one required four, then the engineer has carried out a substantial amount of additional work and deserves to be paid for it.

Whether that cost falls to you or the architect will depend on the exact details of the agreements between all three parties.

MouseTrap wrote: »

However the fact that their original calculations were completely not fit for purpose is another matter...

This is incorrect. The original work was fit for purpose, but not the purpose that you had in mind. For that it would appear the architect is to blame.

If it comes to legal action - which it might if you refuse to pay - then the court will look at the sequence of events to determine liability. The fact you were in direct contact with the engineer and it was your call to them which requested recalculation would suggest liability is likely to be against you, although you might possibly have a claim against your architect (subject to you having a contract with them, and it covering this situation).

If it does go down the legal route then the costs could be substantial... it would be much better if all three parties are able to agree a fair compromise.

Also, bear in mind that until the project is signed off by building control you may have a need for further input from the structural engineer. If they refuse to carry out any further work for you (as would be their right if they haven't been paid) then you might not get building regulations sign off. Long-term this could cost you more than a grand.