Different deeds to my neighbour

Heaths

We bought our house last year and were aware that on our deeds it said that our neighbours had access through our land as our deeds say "The right to enter on to the Roadway for the purpose of turning". They were in fact using our entrance to come in and park their car even though they have a parking space on the other side of their property. To cut a long story short, they are now looking to sell their property and it has come to our attention that what our deeds say about the access is not what their deed say. Their deeds say "A right of way with or without vehicles at all times and for all purposes over the roadway subject to the payment of the Contribution." I am a bit confused as to how their deeds can say something different to mine and wonder if this is legal? Can they sell their house while their deeds say something different to ours? Can they try force us to change our deeds to what theirs says?

davidmcn

If the problem is the parking, a right of access still doesn't give them the right to park.

D_M_E

"payment of the contribution" - what contribution?

Does this mean they should have been giving you money in order to use your land?

If so, why have you not collected or had any payment?

G_M

Heaths wrote: »

......."The right to enter on to the Roadway for the purpose of turning". ....

"A right of way with or without vehicles at all times and for all purposes over the roadway subject to the payment of the Contribution.

1) You are right that these are not the same, but
2) neither of them permit parking on yur land.
3) 'the contribution' must be defined somewhere and I assume
4) there is a Deed, or Conveyance, or other document, that lays out in more detail exactly who has what rights and obligations.
5) that document will be the source of the rights - the text in the respective Titles simply attempts to reflect or precis the document.


So - do either or both Titles refer to such a document? If so, where is it and what does it say?

Grey_Critic

Talk to your solicitor - it is his job to read and understand these things. You paid him to do the [FONT=&quot]conveyancing so he will know the answer.[/FONT]

Heaths

This wording is from our deeds. The only other document referred to in the deeds is the planning permission as our house is only 2 years old. The planning permission actually says that our neighbour should not be accessing the site at all from our driveway as he has 2 spaces from another access point to the other side of his house. We have contacted the council about it and they said that it is a sign of bad neighbourliness on our neighbours part. That they would like to be able to force him to park his car where he should but they cannot legally force him to do so. We have also spoken to solicitors before we knew that his deeds said something different to ours and they advised us that we could send him a letter saying that he is misusing his rights of access by parking rather than 'turning'. He is driving in through our land but then parking on his own land.

Heaths

Grey_Critic wrote: »

Talk to your solicitor - it is his job to read and understand these things. You paid him to do the [FONT=&quot]conveyancing so he will know the answer.[/FONT]

We have...but not getting any quick answers and we have also talked to 2 other solicitors on the matter. No one is giving us clear answers unfortunately.

Heaths

D_M_E wrote: »

"payment of the contribution" - what contribution?

Does this mean they should have been giving you money in order to use your land?

If so, why have you not collected or had any payment?

It is a 50% share from both parties for the costs of maintaining the roadway. So we can't get money from them unless we look to repair it and at the moment we aren't even on talking terms :rotfl:

Heaths

davidmcn wrote: »

If the problem is the parking, a right of access still doesn't give them the right to park.

They are entering through our driveway and then technically parking on their own land. A solicitor told us that they only way we can challenge them on this is by saying they are not using their right to access appropriately as it says on our deeds 'access for the purpose of turning'.

G_M

Heaths wrote: »

It is a 50% share from both parties for the costs of maintaining the roadway.

Errr.... so not there is more information ? Where do you get the 50% information from?

Please quote in full
* your Title
* neighbour's Title
* whatever source you used to get the 50% information

The Planning information is different., but please check both Titles again; In the sections from which you are quoting the Right of Way information, are you sure it does not refer to a 'Conveyance dated xx/xx/xxxx" or similar?

He is driving in through our land but then parking on his own land.

This is not what you originally said/implied:

They were in fact using our entrance to come in and park their car

Very annoying trying to offer advice on incomplete and contradictory information.

Please be precise and accurate if you want precise and accurate responses!

Heaths

G_M wrote: »

Errr.... so not there is more information ? Where do you get the 50% information from?

Please quote in full
* your Title
* neighbour's Title
* whatever source you used to get the 50% information

The Planning information is different., but please check both Titles again; In the sections from which you are quoting the Right of Way information, are you sure it does not refer to a 'Conveyance dated xx/xx/xxxx" or similar?

This is not what you originally said/implied: Very annoying trying to offer advice on incomplete and contradictory information.

Please be precise and accurate if you want precise and accurate responses!

Attached some images which will make the situation clearer.
Edit: It turns out as a new user I'm not allowed to post with links, so if you want to see the picures, copy URL to a new browser tab, remove space after http and press Enter:
http /i68.tinypic.com/8wjrqq.jpg

Top Left: current layout of lands from Google Maps.
Top Right: approved Planning Permission
Bottom Left: drowing from our deeds showing "the Roadway" hatched in green
Bottom Right: blue is our land, green is neighbour's

So basically it was built differently from the original permission, but the Roadway on the deeds are still showing the expected layout. When we raised our concerns to the council, they required us to submit a retrospective planning permission which resulted as the following image, but the deeds didn't change.
Edit: same with this picture copy and remove space, then press Enter
http /i66.tinypic.com/2m2cq2o.jpg

Quoting from our Title:
12 Additional provisions
Definitions
"the Adjoining Land" means all land coloured green on the plan 1
"Plan 1" is the plan annexed hereto and marked Plan 1 showing the extent of the property coloured blue
"Plan 2" is the plan annexed hereto and marked Plan 2 shoing the position of hte Roadway and responsibility for the boundary features.
"the Roadway" means all that area shown hatched Green on the Plan 2
"the Conducting Media" means all seweres water pipes water courses gas pipes electric and telephone and telecommunications cable and wires with all ancillary connections inspection chamers and other apparatus used therewith
"the Contribution" being a 50% share of hte costs of maintaining the Roadway
The expression "the Transeree" or "the Transferor" shall include the maculine and the feminine the singular and the plural and where two or more persons are referred to by that expression all covenants made by them shall be joint and several

Rights granted for the benefir of the property
(empty space)

Rights reserved for the benefit of other land
There is accepted and reserved for the benefit of the Adjoining Land
A right to enter onto the Roadway for the purpose of turning

Restrictive covenants by the transferee
[...]
Restrictive covenants by the ransferor
[...]
Other
POSTIVE COVENANTS BY THE TRANSFEREE
...
1. To perform and observ all conditions and requirements containd in the Planinng Permission number XYZ
2. To maintain the boundaries marked with an inward "T" on the Plan
3. To pay the Contribution in respect of maintaining repairing or renewing the Roadway

POSITIVE COVENANTS BY THE TRANFEROR
...
1. To perform and observe all conditions and requirements contained in the Planning Permission number XYZ
2. To maintain repair or renewing the Radway subject to the payment of the Contributio in respect of maintaining repairing or renewing hte Roadway by the Transferee

AGREEMENTS AN DECLARATIONS
...


Quoting from neighbour's Title:
12 Additional provisions
Definitions
"the Retained Land" means all land remaining in this title
"Plan 1" is the plan annexed hereto and marked Plan 1 showing the extent of the property coloured green
"Plan 2" i the plan annexed hereto and marked Plan 2 showing the position of the Roadway and responsibility for boundary features
"the Roadway" means all that area shown hatched green on Plan 2
"the Conducting Media" means all seweres water pipes water courses gas pipes electric and telephone and telecommunications cable and wires with all ancillary connections inspection chamers and other apparatus used therewith
"the Contribution" being a 50% share of hte costs of maintaining the Roadway
The expression "the Transeree" or "the Transferor" shall include the maculine and the feminine the singular and the plural and where two or more persons are referred to by that expression all covenants made by them shall be joint and several

Rights granted fo the benefit of the property
1. A right of way with or without vehicles at all times and for all purposes over the Radway subject to the payment of the Contribution
2. A right to connect into and to use the Conducting Media under or upon the Roadway
3. The right to enter upon the Roadway for the purpose of inspecting cleansing maintaining repairing and renewing the Conducting Media serving the Property subject to the Transferee and his successors in title making good all damage caused thereby at his own cost and without unnecessary delay and without causing unncessary inconcinience

Rights reserved for the benefit of other land
...

Rest is the same as ours.

Quoting from our solicitor's "Report on Title" document:
Kindly note the rights reserved out of the property in favour of the adjoining properties as referred to in in the deed and highlighted pink. These rights are granted to adjoining property where rights are required over land within you ownership. The rights will be similar to the rights granted for the benefit of the property but in reverse.

• The owner of the Land shown coloured green on Plan 1 has a right to enter onto the land shown hatched green on Plan 2 for the purpose of turning.

Quoting from the approved Planning Permission regarding the Roadway:
The permanent space shown on the plans hereby approved to be reserved on
the site to enable vehicles to:

• enter, turn and leave the site in forward gear;
• park clear of the public highway;
• load and unload;

shall be retained for no other purpose in perpetuity.
Reason - In the interests of satisfactory development and highway safety to
accord with the provision of Policy LP 15.

Quoting from the Officer Report regarding the Roadway after the cuncil's investigation:
It is unfortunate that the car parking and turning areas are not utilised as designed but this remains an issue of good neighbourliness rather than an issue that can be reslved through the planning system. The use of the car parking spaces to the rear of Plot 2 cannot be enforced.

END of quotes

Regarding parking on the Roadway, it is and always been clear to all of us that we shouldn't park on the Roadway, so it never happened. Sorry about not making that clear in the first place, but my original question was, that how these document can say different things?

Ours say: "A right to enter onto the Roadway for the purpose of turning", their's say: "A right of way with or without vehicles at all times and for all purposes over the Radway". Solicitor says: "The rights will be similar to the rights granted for the benefit of the property but in reverse". Council say: "Sorry we can't do anything about this".

Is it legal having different rules over the same piece of land? If yes, which on is right and which one is wrong? If not, who is responsible for it?

PS: Thank you for reading through all this...