Suspension and safeguarding

Asxetos

Hello forum
I'd like to explain my situation and if you could advice me how to proceed I'd be grateful.
Long story short, I work as a health care assistant in a private mental health hospital in the UK. While I was on the observation of a patient I got punched and thus we had to restrain him (always in compliance with the! training I've received). There were at least 7-8 people in the incident but no cctv around.
Everything seemed fine and normal after the incident! until some hours later when I was! told by someone senior that someone from the stuff made a formal complaint that I used my knee on the patients arm causing pain to him ( absolutely absurd). The senior told me that the incident report was clear for me and there were no injuries whatsoever on the patient. I left his office thinking that I'll be fine and next day I received a call from the manager telling me that I am suspended and that the complaint was raised to safeguarding and thus the investigation will be external.
Some things about me now. I'm not interested in doing care work and I was just doing the job for more than a year now as a stepping stone for the next one as I have an undergraduate and a masters in psychology. Having! invested my whole life and a massive amount of money in my studies I don't dare to think that my record will ge dirty or sanctioned by safeguarding.
Things I want to ask: 1) how do you advice me to proceed on this? Should I have a representative on the hearings?( it's been two weeks now since my suspension began and I haven't been contacted by anyone).

2) Also from what I wrote do you think I should worry or not? A complain on safeguarding by someone. No injury or consequence or whatsoever. I'll deny everything. No cctv to prove or disprove the allegation. I mean at the end of the day its his/her word against mine.

3)However, I'm a person that always considers the most negative outcome of a situation. If everything goes wrong (I don't know how though) and gets proven that I did it what could it mean for my future on this field. I want to work as a psychologist in the future.
Thank you for listening and sorry for the long post

Undervalued

Asxetos wrote: »

Hello forum
I'd like to explain my situation and if you could advice me how to proceed I'd be grateful.
Long story short, I work as a health care assistant in a private mental health hospital in the UK. While I was on the observation of a patient I got punched and thus we had to restrain him (always in compliance with the! training I've received). There were at least 7-8 people in the incident but no cctv around.
Everything seemed fine and normal after the incident! until some hours later when I was! told by someone senior that someone from the stuff made a formal complaint that I used my knee on the patients arm causing pain to him ( absolutely absurd). The senior told me that the incident report was clear for me and there were no injuries whatsoever on the patient. I left his office thinking that I'll be fine and next day I received a call from the manager telling me that I am suspended and that the complaint was raised to safeguarding and thus the investigation will be external.
Some things about me now. I'm not interested in doing care work and I was just doing the job for more than a year now as a stepping stone for the next one as I have an undergraduate and a masters in psychology. Having! invested my whole life and a massive amount of money in my studies I don't dare to think that my record will ge dirty or sanctioned by safeguarding.
Things I want to ask:

1) how do you advice me to proceed on this? Should I have a representative on the hearings?( it's been two weeks now since my suspension began and I haven't been contacted by anyone).

You are only entitled to a "rep" at a disciplinary meeting, not an investigation. Union rep or work colleague only unless the employer chooses to allow someone else. There are a very few exceptions where the employee may be entitled to a solicitor. They might possibly apply here.


2) Also from what I wrote do you think I should worry or not? A complain on safeguarding by someone. No injury or consequence or whatsoever. I'll deny everything. No cctv to prove or disprove the allegation. I mean at the end of the day its his/her word against mine.

It is not a criminal court! "Guilt" does not have to be proved. To dismiss lawfully the employer simply needs a "reasonable belief" that the misconduct took place and that it is serious enough that a reasonable employer might consider dismissal.

3)However, I'm a person that always considers the most negative outcome of a situation. If everything goes wrong (I don't know how though) and gets proven that I did it what could it mean for my future on this field. I want to work as a psychologist in the future.

Indeed, in this sort of occupation it could well have serious / career ending implications.

Thank you for listening and sorry for the long post

Because of your occupation you need to seek proper legal advice.

ohreally

Since this has the potential to become a fitness to practice issue you would be wise to get accountable advice.

Undervalued

Asxetos wrote: »

2) Also from what I wrote do you think I should worry or not? A complain on safeguarding by someone. No injury or consequence or whatsoever. I'll deny everything. No cctv to prove or disprove the allegation. I mean at the end of the day its his/her word against mine.

Just to add....

It may not be what you meant but this paragraph could easily be read as "I did it but they can't prove it"!!

That approach is fine legally (but maybe not morally!) if this were a criminal case. If it were it would have to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. Anything less equals not guilty.

This is quite different and as I said all the employer needs is a "reasonable belief" which is often thought of as 51%. A dismissal made on that basis will be fair in law even if it is later proved that the employer was wrong. All that matters is that it was reasonable for them to hold that belief at the time.

That is the employment position. Others can advise you better on the care / safeguarding aspects but I would urge you to get professional advice.

polgara

Ok - when you were suspended you should have received a letter detailing the conditions of your suspension and a named contact. Give them a ring and ask for an update.


As it has been raised as an inappropriate restraint/safeguarding it will need a full investigation - the investigators are most probably interviewing all involved in the assault/full restraint and those who may have observed it.


As pointed out you are not entitled to representation at the investigation interview, although check the disciplinary policy as it might allow for it in your organisation (we do for instance).


Speak to your union and take their advice - my advice is don't go in with the 'its my word, against theirs'. Credibility can count for a lot and that approach can be counterproductive as it would make me more suspicious. If you are going to stay working with vulnerable people then you should have an solid grounding in safeguarding and how we need to ensure all allegations are robustly investigated.

Autumn868

I have been in a very similar situation myself 2-years ago,
although in my case one boy attacked another with a snooker-cue, no other staff who saw it ran to deal with it apart from me, and so I had to drag the little c*nt away by his neck and restrain him myself for 30-40seconds until a 2nd staff member finally decided to help me.

Same process of the suspension ect, but there was CCTV, and even though the force I used was ''necessary and not-beyond reasonable'', because the boy was aged 17 + because he was classed as 'a patient', they were going to sack me and/or would have to escalate for external investigation by the CQC.


In my case I had already been offered a new job before this happened though, and so had already handed my notice in even (for a date 4-weeks later),
but so instead of letting this ruin my employment record, I simply just made an agreement with the managers that I would simply let my notice-period run it's course, but I personally wouldn't come into work during it.

(They were happy with that as it saved them from having to have a CQC investigation black-mark against their hospital / And it suited me perfectly). :beer:


But so what I would strongly advise you is to simply just hand in your 2 weeks notice NOW before the hearing.
Don't mention this incident at all in your reason for leaving, simply just say that you are handing in your notice.

They may still call you to attend the meeting, although you can ofcourse just 'be too unwell' to attend on that date, forcing them to reschedule it for a date after would of left the job, and therefore nullifying the entire hearing from ever actually happening.

But this way they cannot sack you, as they would need to first conduct the hearing, and cannot even give you a bad reference/or mention this incident in any way on any future reference,
since until/unless that hearing takes place no verdict can be drawn about you, plus you never will of been sacked for gross misconduct, you instead will simply of resigned of your own accord to 'focus on your degree studies'.

:beer:

Hauzen

Autumn868 wrote: »

I
But so what I would strongly advise you is to simply just hand in your 2 weeks notice NOW before the hearing.
Don't mention this incident at all in your reason for leaving, simply just say that you are handing in your notice.

They may still call you to attend the meeting, although you can ofcourse just 'be too unwell' to attend on that date, forcing them to reschedule it for a date after would of left the job, and therefore nullifying the entire hearing from ever actually happening.

But this way they cannot sack you, as they would need to first conduct the hearing, and cannot even give you a bad reference/or mention this incident in any way on any future reference,
since until/unless that hearing takes place no verdict can be drawn about you, plus you never will of been sacked for gross misconduct, you instead will simply of resigned of your own accord to 'focus on your degree studies'.

:beer:

Been a long time member of this board and generally browse but don't post that often... but my lord do I agree with the likes of sangie and others who caution against following advice of those who seek only to troll you and put you into even worse situations.

The advice above is a clear example of this.

I work in a senior social care role in Scotland and I am of the understanding that safeguarding is a similar process to Adult Support & Protection up here. Where ASP/safeguarding concerns are raised then these will be thoroughly investigated even if the employee resigns so that the regulatory body (CQC in England, SSSC in Scotland) can be informed about what the outcome would have been and thus properly safeguard vulnerable adults.

What the poster above has described is what allowed serial abusers to essentially job hop in years gone by, where when they were caught by one company they could resign and get a job somewhere else to carry out their abuse. Safeguarding measures now mean that is far less likely.

You WILL be investigated thoroughly, regardless of whether or not you remain in post. You WILL be sanctioned by the regulatory body if found to have committed misconduct that puts vulnerable individuals at risk. If you are not fit to practice, you no longer can work in care.

Undervalued

Autumn868 wrote: »

I have been in a very similar situation myself 2-years ago,
although in my case one boy attacked another with a snooker-cue, no other staff who saw it ran to deal with it apart from me, and so I had to drag the little c*nt away by his neck and restrain him myself for 30-40seconds until a 2nd staff member finally decided to help me.

Same process of the suspension ect, but there was CCTV, and even though the force I used was ''necessary and not-beyond reasonable'', because the boy was aged 17 + because he was classed as 'a patient', they were going to sack me and/or would have to escalate for external investigation by the CQC.


In my case I had already been offered a new job before this happened though, and so had already handed my notice in even (for a date 4-weeks later),
but so instead of letting this ruin my employment record, I simply just made an agreement with the managers that I would simply let my notice-period run it's course, but I personally wouldn't come into work during it.

(They were happy with that as it saved them from having to have a CQC investigation black-mark against their hospital / And it suited me perfectly). :beer:


But so what I would strongly advise you is to simply just hand in your 2 weeks notice NOW before the hearing.
Don't mention this incident at all in your reason for leaving, simply just say that you are handing in your notice.

They may still call you to attend the meeting, although you can ofcourse just 'be too unwell' to attend on that date, forcing them to reschedule it for a date after would of left the job, and therefore nullifying the entire hearing from ever actually happening.

But this way they cannot sack you, as they would need to first conduct the hearing, and cannot even give you a bad reference/or mention this incident in any way on any future reference,
since until/unless that hearing takes place no verdict can be drawn about you, plus you never will of been sacked for gross misconduct, you instead will simply of resigned of your own accord to 'focus on your degree studies'.

:beer:

This post is an absolute disgrace. What a way in which to refer to one of the people for whom you were supposed to care!

The "advice" given in this post is wrong in just about every way, as has been explained by Hauzen and I totally agree with everything s/he has said.

Although this forum can be helpful it can also be very dangerous as this post sadly demonstrates.

ohreally

This is a disgraceful post (#6), I hope that your employment in social care is short lived, you are not a fit individual to be working in that sector.

Autumn868

Hauzen wrote: »

I work in a senior social care role in Scotland and I am of the understanding that safeguarding is a similar process to Adult Support & Protection up here. Where ASP/safeguarding concerns are raised then these will be thoroughly investigated even if the employee resigns so that the regulatory body (CQC in England, SSSC in Scotland) can be informed about what the outcome would have been and thus properly safeguard vulnerable adults.

What the poster above has described is what allowed serial abusers to essentially job hop in years gone by, where when they were caught by one company they could resign and get a job somewhere else to carry out their abuse. Safeguarding measures now mean that is far less likely.

You WILL be investigated thoroughly, regardless of whether or not you remain in post. You WILL be sanctioned by the regulatory body if found to have committed misconduct that puts vulnerable individuals at risk. If you are not fit to practice, you no longer can work in care.

Sorry but that simply just isn't factually accurate or correct at all.

IF the issue was of serious harm causing serious injury/or some form of abuse THEN it would be reported to/investigated by CQC regardless of whether the employee resigned for not.

However for a minor petite internal issue such as a staff member complaining that another staff member used abit too much force during a routine restraint the ONLY time that would ever actually get escalated to CQC would be if the hospital sacked the person, but the person challenged that as unfair dismissal, and so the issue had to then be investigated further, including by an external third party (the CQC).


In most hospitals you have to do dozens of restraints per week, some of the require more force than others, staff complain/patients complain, its all routine - The CQC doesn't get involved in routine low level complaints.

If it was a medical issue such as an RMN or doctor giving wrong medication then yes it'd always get investigated,
but HCAs/Support-Workers are NOT 'registered to practise'/there is no register.


Ultimately it's upto the OP to choose themself what they do.

But I'm just warning them that IF they don't resign, but then get sacked, that will 100% cause a black mark against their name.

Wheras IF they do resign, it's extremely likely that the issue will simply just be closed, as ultimately it is simply just a minor internal complaint.
Its not 100% certain that it would, be there is less than 5% chance that it'd cause a black mark against their name VS 100% certainty that being sacked for gross misconduct would do.

Autumn868

Undervalued wrote: »

This post is an absolute disgrace. What a way in which to refer to one of the people for whom you were supposed to care!

*Ok well maybe YOU personally have no issue with violent little thugs.

*You believe 17 year old boys should be allowed to go round beating up young girls and women.

*You believe it's ok for them to violently attack other random boys just because they are feeling frustrated.

*You believe them punching/stabbing doctors just because they get told news which they don't like is acceptable.

*If you saw a vicious teenage boy savagely beating-up YOUR son or YOUR daughter, you personally would just try to verbally de-escalate/or would just stand there watching & wait until a 2nd person came so you could restrain the guy in a more gentle manner...


The reality is that you have no clue whatsoever about what it's actually like to do these jobs.
You spent your whole life just sat inside an office, doing mundane regular office tasks, but forming opinions about jobs which you have no experience of whatsoever, simply from what you read in the dailymail. :cool:

*The reality is though that just because someone is 'a patient' does not in any way mean they are above the law/or allowed to commit criminal acts such as violent assualt against others.

*The reality is that a large number of the people in PICU mental-hospitals actually belong in prison, as they are just violent offenders,
but know how to play the system to get themself sectioned and into a cushy secure hospital rather than a cold prison cell,
however they will be returned back to prison once being discharged off the section

*The reality is that ANY force/restraint is fully legal providing it is necessary & not 'excessively unreasonable' in the circumstances, regardless of how much it may hurt the person/or even injure them! :T


You can try saying that grabbing someone, who is violently attacking someone else in a vicious unprovoked attack with an offensive weapon,
and just dragging them off the victim, using whatever hold you are able to get on them, regardless of how much it may hurt them,
is a 'disgraceful' thing to do;
However if someone just stood by watching whilst someone got violently beaten-up with a weapon, rather than restraining the offender, purely because you were waiting for more staff to arrive so you could then together use restrain the person in a more gentle way,
I can tell that someone like you would be the 1st to howl about that too!


The reality is that you personally have no experience whatsoever in this kind of work or these kind of situations.
You haven't been physically restraining violent offenders, every single day, for the past 10+ years of your career, and so simply haven't got a clue about anything to do with the reality of these situations.

But given that the police are now ramming their cars into mere shop-lifters on mopeds, and that is deemed as 'reasonable use of force',
I'm pretty sure that simply using my hands to physically restraint a violent offender attacking someone else with a weapon would've been deemed as reasonable force too. :beer: