PCN sent to old address and only received due to post redirection

Sir_Render

I have received a PCN relating to a stay of 2hrs 10mins in a car park where the limit was 2hrs. I can prove the 2hrs 10mins with Google location data (not sure how that stands up though).

The car I was in was a hire car and I was parked at a McDonalds. The parking company have obviously contacted the hire car company who have given them my old address, even though I'm pretty sure I gave them my current address when I hired the car. Having said that I am a regular user of this national hire car company, so it's possible they only hold my old address.

My question is - the parking company clearly believe they have sent me this letter - but actually it is only because I am paying for post re-direction that I have actually received it. So at this tine, the parking company don't know where I live. The parking situation itself occured more than 21 days ago, but the date of issue is less than 21 days ago. The letter is dated yesterday.

I'm torn between doing nothing - since I technically could argue I have not received anything - or getting on with lodging a appeal - particularly since I only went over by 12 minutes. Then there is the the old 14 days discount. If I have no chance of appealing successfully - I would rather pay now than risk it doubling.

Any advice welcome. Hope my situation is sufficiently different to warrant this new thread

beamerguy

Sir_Render wrote: »

I have received a PCN relating to a stay of 2hrs 10mins in a car park where the limit was 2hrs. I can prove the 2hrs 10mins with Google location data (not sure how that stands up though).

The car I was in was a hire car and I was parked at a McDonalds. The parking company have obviously contacted the hire car company who have given them my old address, even though I'm pretty sure I gave them my current address when I hired the car. Having said that I am a regular user of this national hire car company, so it's possible they only hold my old address.

My question is - the parking company clearly believe they have sent me this letter - but actually it is only because I am paying for post re-direction that I have actually received it. So at this tine, the parking company don't know where I live. The parking situation itself occured more than 21 days ago, but the date of issue is less than 21 days ago. The letter is dated yesterday.

I'm torn between doing nothing - since I technically could argue I have not received anything - or getting on with lodging a appeal - particularly since I only went over by 12 minutes. Then there is the the old 14 days discount. If I have no chance of appealing successfully - I would rather pay now than risk it doubling.

Any advice welcome. Hope my situation is sufficiently different to warrant this new thread

Well, the first thing is ..... who is the parking company

waamo

If post is going to the incorrect address then you run the risk of them eventually filing a court claim using the old address.

There is the very real possibility of them getting a default ccj against you and all the aggravation that involves.

Have you found the Newbies thread yet? If you have just use the template in it and make sure they have your correct address.

twhitehousescat

umm , think I have read the answer to this in another thread , hang on its called "newbies please read this first" , it's hard to locate tho , so search hard

2hrs and 10 mins is typically less than 2 hrs PLUS GRACE PERIODS , so you may want to check that out as well

forget the 14 day thing , WHO is the parking muppets that are involved?

MistyZ

Hi there.

I'm currently helping someone fight a hire car NTK. My initial thoughts are that you should fight it, mainly because hire car parking charges are invariably very easy to win because the parking companies rarely, if ever, comply with POFA Schedule 4, paras 13 & 14. Check out hire car advice on the Newbies' thread (and search for similar situations on the forum). So on the face of it you do have a very good chance indeed of appealing successfully, although that would almost certainly involve continuing to the second appeal, the POPLA stage.

Additionally, 10 minutes overstay is, technically, no overstay at all as a 'Grace Period' of at least 10 minutes should apply. Though that may not be as blindingly straightforward to contest as it should be. Great component of any future POPLA appeal though.

Wondering whether DVLA were informed of the change of address?

Do take a look at the relevant sections of the Newbies' thread.

twhitehousescat

the grace periods are clearly shown in both the BPA and IPC codes of conduct , we need to know the name of the parking co in order to give info applicable to correct ATA

the licence thing is a non starter as this is a hire vehicle , who s name is on v5

Sir_Render

Useful extra info:

1. This was a hire car - so I assume the letter I have is effective a 'Notice to Hirer'
2. I have read the NEWBIES section in some detail including downloading and reading the POFA 2012 - but there's a lot to take in! I can't find a specific example of where the Notice to Hirer has gone to a previous address and can't quite decide whether this helps me or makes no difference
3. The parking company is MET who are a BPA member.
4. I have received a letter from them with no other documentation
5. The letter does not include the exact alleged length of my parking stay - only that the vehicle was parked for a longer period than allowed.

My first thought is that according to section 13 (1)b the company has to inform the keeper within 14 days. How do I know they actually met that deadline? Should I call the hire company to find out? Or does that only confirm that I have received the letter and start me on a path which is not in my favour?

The second thought was that since I was the only named driver on the hire agreement - surely that proves I must have been the driver? How could I possibly argue that anyone else was?

Lastly - I did not receive any of the following:
(a) a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the
effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named
person under a hire agreement;
(b) a copy of the hire agreement; and
(c) a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire
agreement.

And it would appear from section 14(6)(c) that the documents mentioned in sub-paragraph 2(a) need to be given to the hirer within the relevant period which so far as I can see is 21 days. My letter is dated 23 days after the 'contravention' and does not include (a)-(c) above.

So does this mean that I could simply reply saying 'too late - you didn't inform the hirer within 21 days so game over'.

Sir_Render

waamo wrote: »

If post is going to the incorrect address then you run the risk of them eventually filing a court claim using the old address.

There is the very real possibility of them getting a default ccj against you and all the aggravation that involves.

Have you found the Newbies thread yet? If you have just use the template in it and make sure they have your correct address.

Thanks wammo - so you think the fact they don't yet know my current address isn't something this is helpful to me? You reckon I should respond and tell them of new address and appeal?

Any thoughts on whether Google location timeline data is proof enough of a specific period of stay?

Sir_Render

MistyZ wrote: »

Hi there.

I'm currently helping someone fight a hire car NTK. My initial thoughts are that you should fight it, mainly because hire car parking charges are invariably very easy to win because the parking companies rarely, if ever, comply with POFA Schedule 4, paras 13 & 14. Check out hire car advice on the Newbies' thread (and search for similar situations on the forum). So on the face of it you do have a very good chance indeed of appealing successfully, although that would almost certainly involve continuing to the second appeal, the POPLA stage.

Additionally, 10 minutes overstay is, technically, no overstay at all as a 'Grace Period' of at least 10 minutes should apply. Though that may not be as blindingly straightforward to contest as it should be. Great component of any future POPLA appeal though.

Wondering whether DVLA were informed of the change of address?

Do take a look at the relevant sections of the Newbies' thread.

Yes that's what I thought. My overstay was 12mins by the way assuming (a) the max period was 2hrs and (b) my google location history is accurate enough proof.

The letter does mention that photographic evidence may have een taken to support the charge notice and gives metview.com as where I can go to view them. Any harm in doing that I wonder.

Thanks a lot for responding and helping. Part of me thinks just save all this time and pay up - but maybe one well written first response may save me £50!

Coupon-mad

No way should anyone pay MET, especially not a hirer who has 100% win at POPLA.

Simply submit the 'hirer' version of appeal shown in the NEWBIES thread - there are 3 linked examples, near the end of the first post in the company/lease/hire car section (not the one from a Fleet Manager).

You should add to the example of an individual hirer appeal, that you were an occupant of the car and its hirer, and that you have Google location data proving the time on site was in fact 2 hrs 10 minutes, thus not over the BPA Grace period at all. If MET's website allows, upload that proof.

State that clearly their ANPR clocks are - deliberately, or negligently - set to be unsynchronised, to create the misleading illusion of being at a site a couple of minutes longer than a car was, in fact there. Ask for an explanation - negligence or deliberate scam? Say that you will complain to the Information Commissioner with your evidence, regardless of appeal outcome, because clearly this is tantamount to fraud to raise a PCN under false timing.

And finish by saying this appeal also advises them that in fact your address for service of letters is xxxxxxx (new address) and that MET must now erase the old address data and rectify it to the new one. And if they do not, or refuse the erasure request, that too will be raise in your ICO complaint, which will be lodged once you have won the appeal.

DO NOT say who was driving. MET do not know. BE CAREFUL with your added words.

MistyZ

I think you should take waamo's words to heart. Appropriate action, following the 'method' provided by this forum, should see you home & dry with a hire car PCN. But just hoping it'll go away could lead to a lot of harassment and ultimately a ccj.

Yes, it's 'just £50' but for 10 minutes?? And why feed the beast?

That first response to the company, using Edna Basher's template from the Newbies' thread, should be quick and painless. Just ensure you do not blab about who was driving regardless of circumstances (you may wish to edit your post here accordingly). You appeal as hirer/lessee.

However MET would almost certainly reject it, if they even read it. And it is at the next stage, the POPLA appeal that you could reasonably expect success. However .... I've been searching for POPLA appeals to all but copy from the forum today and found two within 10 minutes ... none of this need be a big headache.

Edit: just seen that Coupon_Mad got in before me with much more specific and tailored advice!