Elite 11+ shopping and chat thread part 3

davemorton

locarr wrote: »

I guess it depends on whether you want the thread closed, I don’t.

Do you?

Have a look at the 1st and last posts of the last thread.

We’ve been warned many times.

I think what people are getting at, is they never tell us what it is. The last time it happened, I (as people know) emailed the forum team, asking for clarity on what topics they meant, as no one know what posts had been reported by the more knowledgeable on fraud (or more bitter ones),, but they would not say. I am sure if we know, then people would stop discussing them immediately, but so far, every topic that has been examined, has been above board, and definitely not fraud.

Savvybuyer

nettiebobs wrote: »

I have to agree with you TM. Everyone has a different line that they feel should/shouldn't be crossed. We have to respect that everyone is different.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46279638

On the railway thing, it seems to me perfectly legitimate to make a booking, thus satisfying the requirement that they set out, in return for the loyalty points that are offered for doing so. The T&Cs do not require you to make the journey to qualify for the points so whether or not you do so is irrelevant.

On the booking hoping that your train gets cancelled, that's perfectly legitimate too because you're under no legal duty to disclose your wish that your train gets cancelled (freedom of thought is an absolute right) and, if the train is not cancelled, then you've paid your money to book and couldn't get a refund to make a change or cancel your own booking when the price of the booking is less than their admin. fee. If however the train is cancelled, then you may be entitled to compensation - if you are, you should claim it and they have catered for this too:

"...if you have purchased a ticket and your train is cancelled or delayed, and you choose not to travel, you may return the unused ticket to the original retailer which the ticket was purchased from and you will be given a full refund with no administration fee being charged."
"If you do travel, either on a delayed service or on the following one because your train has been cancelled, you may be entitled to compensation. This should be claimed from the TRAIN COMPANY on which you were scheduled to travel. You may have a right to some (or all) of your money back depending on the TRAIN COMPANY you used and their Passenger's Charter.
The delay thresholds and process for claiming are set out in the relevant Passenger's Charter – you may get back a proportion (or all) of the price of the ticket depending on the length of the delay."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/72098.aspx

Therefore, it would seem that the routes to compensation (if you decide to travel) or to have your booking money back without an admin. fee (if you do not travel) would only make sense if your train journey was local to you as you'd at least have to pick up and print out the ticket from the station before not travelling and getting to the station to do that might itself cost more than the (hopefully) low value booking you made.

So, if you are local to the place you booked for, and the train you booked ends up being delayed enough or cancelled, you may be able to get the points for nowt if you were then not travelling (except to the station to pick up the ticket and the original retailer has an establishment there). I'm only suggesting that you claim compensation if you think you are entitled to it - if you are entitled to compensation, then of course you should claim it - and it should go without saying that you wouldn't lie about anything when making a compensation claim. It's perfectly legitimate to claim compensation or a refund of your ticket price when entitled and to tell the truth when claiming - namely that you did/didn't travel and the ticket you bought. Otherwise, if you book under the points offer, your train is delayed or cancelled and don't travel, it's just the low value booking anyway in return for the points. Moreover the information on the NRE page envisages situations where people might not travel so it's perfectly legitimate to make bookings for trains and qualify for loyalty points offered for doing so even if you do not travel, when that is not a requirement of the law, their booking conditions or the offer. Even if it was a condition of their booking conditions, it would only be a civil breach of contract and they would have to sue you for that anyway and there would seem to me to be zero chance of getting your side of contract specifically performed or your "breach" might only be a breach of warranty and not a breach of condition entitling them to damages and to terminate the contract. It is not a condition of the points offer so you would be entitled to the points if you have met those conditions and have not done anything unlawful.

karlie88

pacifica9 wrote: »

And yet in the even smaller print at the bottom of the email it also states: "1,000 Nectar points applies to all GWR Advance Single fares booked via link above. "

Precisely - but note again just above that term 'first booking':



It's not the most well thought out of promos. I'm following their terms just like the rest of us on here.

davemorton

aau1 wrote: »

Holy moly so it does! :eek:

Awww man, I have to go out tomorrow night !

aau1

karlie88 wrote: »

With regards to the 1k offer it does state:

You’ll even get 1,000 Nectar points – worth £5 – with your first booking.

True, but it doesn't say "only with your first booking"

The fact is you DO get 1,000 points with your first booking per the above you just also happen to get them on your 2nd, 3rd, 4th,etc

mhoc

davemorton wrote: »

Sorted
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Orange-Cream-Enamel-Camping-Hiking/dp/B00ABHQ97K

I was going to say that there is nothing wrong with an orange camping mug but then I noticed in the bottom left hand corner one for £6.99 so the same price as TKMax Le Cruset
Possibly its just me, good quality mugs may be very dear now and Ive just not been keeping up.

aau1

They didn't even change the footer on the 2nd email when they notified us that they were extending the offer by a day. Both emails say every ticket qualifies!

edit: i mean they changed the footer because it now says the 30th, but they left in the part about the 1000 points

karlie88

aau1 wrote: »

True, but it doesn't say "only with your first booking"

The fact is you DO get 1,000 points with your first booking per the above you just also happen to get them on your 2nd, 3rd, 4th,etc

Agreed. Just pointing out that there is a (small) element of ambiguity with this promotion.

Anyway, I'm going to break the ice...

...has anyone managed to do more than 5 transactions on the same debit/credit card?

Having caught up with over 1000 posts I noted that some of you did a maximum of 5 transactions a few days ago. Was that because your 6th attempt was unsuccessful?

davemorton

But I can find lots of advanced single tickets that do not have points on, recon I could complain to them, might even get 500 free points :beer:? :cool:

michaels

locarr wrote: »

True but....




when folks are talking openly about buying "ill fitting" clothes or "ill fitting" electricals, it's clear what the intention is and it's probably best not to advertise it on here...it's been mentioned several times in the past....


there was also talk of what could be "got away with" on SS tills yesterday too that probably didn't go down well with the forum team.

As you were....

So I can't see that buying items with the intention of returning them which is permitted under the store t&c which probably specifically say returns within x days for any reason are acceptable is fraudulent either?

Savvybuyer wrote: »

It's not about whether something is morally correct, or morally incorrect, in theory, as, if something is legally fraud, it is fraud. It's not about morally correct, it's an objective test, in part, as all ways of committing fraud require dishonesty and therefore the Ghosh test (which also applies to theft) applies. The test is in two parts:

• was what was done dishonest by the ordinary standards of reasonable and honest people? - objective test
• must the defendant have realised that what he/she was doing was, by those standards, dishonest? - subjective

It is for a jury to decide whether something is dishonest. However, that's the theory. In practice, it could be said it depends on what the members of the jury think is morally correct. However, as the members of the jury are drawn randomly from society, it might be expected that, overall, their standards would be what was generally thought to be morally correct.

On the second highlighting, the answer is yes. However, there may be public interest reasons, if an amount was particularly small, why a prosecution would not be brought. However, the offence would technically still be committed (if it was fraud in the first place).

It is not a matter for personal opinion. The law says what is or is not fraud.

Afaik, no-one has ever expressed stated precisely what they believe to be fraud and nothing has told me anywhere that people were thinking about these train tickets. However, it seems to me that booking a journey in return for loyalty points that are offered is a perfectly valid and lawful contract. There is no false representation. There is no failure to disclose information because I do not see any legal duty to disclose information (I do not give legal advice) - I can't see where there is any requirement by law to disclose that you are merely booking and not intending to print the ticket or to travel. Which specific part of statute or common law requires people to do this? I can't see there is - besides, you are paying to book. Finally, there is no abuse of position. It seems none of the three ways that fraud can be committed under the Fraud Act 2006 therefore apply.

The offers are of certain number of points in return for making a booking on the operator's train. It is a perfectly valid offer, which may be accepted. In other words, a legal contract if someone chooses to do so. There is no requirement to make the journey to qualify for the points.

It is perfectly legitimate and legal to "rip the pants out of" promotions. I do not see that there is any provision of law that makes doing this illegal. Therefore it is perfectly fine to do regardless of what other people's moral views irrelevantly are. There are restrictions in promotions themselves that say when you don't qualify for the points. For example, first booking only. If they have given no limit or time period, then there is none. You are required to pay each time to make a booking, in return for what they have offered. If you qualify you can therefore do it as many times as you like and entirely unlimited - and you have to pay for a booking each time so that is sufficient detriment to us for contractual purposes. Indeed, it would be silly to make a booking and then not use the ticket if you didn't qualify for the points. If you do qualify, then that seems to me to be fine. I am perfectly happy to accept offers and make payments as part of conditions of a contract where they are offering me back something worth more than my own lawful and clearly sufficient consideration within the meaning of contract law.

The only thing I would note is that morally buying all these tickets may push prices up fro those who do need to travel on a service or in the extreme even prevent them buying a ticket or a train that eventually runs half empty.