Economy 7 night rate problem

Green_garnet

I have joined to ask your opinion about a lady's Economy 7 electricity bill night rate problem. I was asked to look over her bills after Martin's advice on TV about paying less. The lady's bill, as Martin said on his programme, said that she could pay less.

I have never had Economy 7 all electric myself but the problem I picked up, looking through the lady's bills for her, and glad to do so at her request, seemed to relate to a change in Economy 7 tariff one year ago. Until that time the bills showed two rates, a lower rate for night, miidnight to 8 am, and a higher rate for day kWhrs used.

For the past 12 months the bill layout is the same although the tariff, with the same supplier, is exactly the same rate for the lower rate Night as for the higher rate Day although the kWhrs used are listed separetly for night and for day reading exactly as before. Her direct debit has increased by about £20 a month and her day and night Economy 7 meter readings are accurate and not estimated.

The company are looking into it and will get back to her once their Billing Team have checked. In the meantime I am wondering if the lady will receive a full refund for the wrong, higher night rate she has been charged for the past year and maybe a reduced monthly direct debit. I think this would be a fair outcome, given that the information here is correct and, from the bills, it does look look like that.

I don't want to raise her hopes too much although I think she should receive a refund and her inaccurate higher night rate rectified. Does that sound about right? I'll be glad of your opinions, thanks.

Green garnet - on behalf of a lady who cannot use this site herself.

[Deleted User]

Extremely common to have the day and night readings transposed especially if the meter was read by MDS ( used to be G4S ) . They read for BG, Scot Power, EDF etc and she has a digital meter with rate 1 rate 2 ..Rate 1 is usually day rate, rate 2 is night rate..MDS will input the day reading as night rate
The rule of thumb with a transposed reading is if she has night storage heaters then she will be losing out quite badly. If she does not have NSH then she would gain from the transposed day/night readings and the supplier will seek to recover the money

Green_garnet

Thanks Houbara. That's good to know. From her bills the readings kWh numbers are OK - different kWhrs used for Day and For Night. The amount charged for Night per kWhr for about a year is exactly the same as for Day rate kWhr and the lady has not been receiving the lower Night per kWhr rate at all.

I haver never seen her actual Economy 7 meter - just looked over her bills.

She'll let me know if she hears anything and I'll post the outcome here. She's a retired lady with an increased direct debit up by £20 a month so I hope she does receive a refund/reduced monthly Direct Debit amount.

Thanks.
Green garnet

Green_garnet

The situation seems to be almost resolved although, to sort it out fully may be difficult.

With on line access to the lady's account the last statements covering thirteen months have all disappeared fron the account. An email to her gave a link to a new revised bill showing a credit in her account now, replacing the debit balance but no suggestion to reduce future direct debit amounts. The revised bill is to 01 October 2018.

There was no apology.

The daily standing charge is still not accurate but it will take time to show exactly when it went wrong. I think it relates to an increase in daily standing charge tariff 12 months ago ane the whole revised bill goes back thirteen months. The two tariff rates seem to be accurate and this accounts for the credit in her account, it is just some of the daily standing charge is not correct.

Because the previous bills have been removed from her on line account and replaced by one revised bill I think it will have to be left, accept that the main problem has been solved and a credit is on the account. Any refund of daily standing charge for one month would be small and difficult to pin down accurately.

I tried to print the revised account of five pages but it was pdf and too pale to read properly. I have more than 20 printed pdf pages and they are all very much too pale to read - I have also posted on Techie Forum hoping for help to print them properly.

If anyone would comment it would be helpful, thanks.

Green garnet

mac.d

This isn't anything to do with transposed readings? Isn't it that for some reason a year ago they started charging a single flat rate for both day & night readings instead of the usual lower night rate and a higher day rate? Could they have switched her from an Economy 7 tariff to a standard tariff and that's why the rates were the same and why the standing charge has changed?

You say they've credited her account, and it now shows the correct night and day rate price and that the credit amount looks about right, so I'd just be keeping an eye on her bills to make sure they still have her on the correct Economy 7 tariff.

EachPenny

Green_garnet wrote: »

With on line access to the lady's account the last statements covering thirteen months have all disappeared fron the account. An email to her gave a link to a new revised bill showing a credit in her account now, replacing the debit balance but no suggestion to reduce future direct debit amounts. The revised bill is to 01 October 2018.
...
Because the previous bills have been removed from her on line account and replaced by one revised bill I think it will have to be left, accept that the main problem has been solved and a credit is on the account. Any refund of daily standing charge for one month would be small and difficult to pin down accurately.

The previous bills shouldn't have been removed from her online account. Although the bills were inaccurate, she was still billed, VAT was paid, and they are legal documents. You should ask the company (on her behalf) to restore her access to the bills, or else send her (free of charge) paper copies.

On that point, if she isn't able to use online services herself (or have someone regularly check for her) then being on a paperless tariff might not be appropriate. There is little point saving a few pounds by being paperless if undetected billing errors are costing tens or hundreds of pounds.

By the sound of it the company have somehow switched her onto a single-rate tariff, charging her the same rate for both day and night consumption. You might want to find out whether she agreed to this (perhaps not understanding what was happening) or if it was an error by the company.

It is possible, but I've never heard of it before, that the company noticed that her night time consumption wasn't sufficient to make E7 worthwhile and automatically switched her to a cheaper tariff.

For E7 to be cheaper overall you need to use enough electricity at night on the cheaper rate to cancel out the usually higher day rate and higher standing charges. Typicially you need to use at least 25-30% of your electric at night before you break even.

Have you checked the day/night consumption split to see whether she is actually benefitting from E7?

Also, some E7 meters have a separate mechanical timeclock to control the hours the lower rate is charged. Over time these clocks can go wrong, meaning the cheaper hours are not in the night. If she has a timeclock then you need to check it is showing the right time. If you aren't sure then post a picture of the dial and someone will be able to advise.

Bear in mind that if the clock appears to be wrong then the important thing is only that she makes sure to use electricity during the cheap hours - whenever they are - by setting any timed appliances (e.g. storage heaters) to come on when the meter is recording cheap rate. In other words, before complaining to the electricity company that the clock is wrong, make sure that the error isn't to her advantage. (but don't tell anyone I said that )

wavelets

EachPenny wrote: »

....

For E7 to be cheaper overall you need to use enough electricity at night on the cheaper rate to cancel out the usually higher day rate and higher standing charges. Typicially you need to use at least 25-30% of your electric at night before you break even....

It will, of course, vary according to the specific tariff & supplier requested.

BUT...Ofgem is introducing a price cap for standard variable default tariffs, which I strongly suspect the OP's lady acquaintance is on (why? :eek:).
That cap restricts the daily standing charge to the same level, whether it be a single rate or multi-rate meter.
But the level of cap for a kwh on a multi rate tariff is capped at a lower rate than a single rate tariff

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/system/files/docs/2018/11/decision_-_default_tariff_cap_-_overview_document_0.pdf (page 13)

So, assuming suppliers set their prices to almost the level of the cap (as happened for those on PPMs), those on E7 default tariff will always be better off than those on single rate default tariff, no matter how much or who little they take advantage of the lower rate also provided on E7.

To the OP.
Please read this MSE advice
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/you-switch-gas-electricity/
and pass it onto the lady who cannot use this site.
There are savings of £100's to be made for most that are on default tariffs

Green_garnet

Thank you for all the valuable information on # 5, 6 and 7 and for the helpful links. I'll go through it as carefully as I can once I am able to concentrate better. The reason for her being on line is because she has help with it and the tariff was a significant amount less than with paper/conventional billing and she uses email although not every day.



From the bills the Flow Tariff is Forget-me-Not from October 2017. The previous Connect 8 Tarrif was problem free and ended with an account credit which was transferred to the first Statement with Forget-me-Not from October 2017.


It looks as if, on the revised bill, the daily standing charge at the higher daily Forget-me-Not rate, has been charged 'back' to sometime in August 2017 when she was still on a lower Connect 8 daily standing charge. I don't think it would amount to much money but it makes me wonder what else may not be right.



I, with the lady's on-going permission, checked again and all these Statements (bills) are still missing having been replaced by the one Revised Bill. I could hardly begin to work it out if the refund did or did not include VAT. The good thing is that she has had a refund to her account which is now in credit.


In addition to this the Day kWhrs used and Night kWhrs used for the past year all seem to be all right on the Revised Bill: Both different amounts and the rate per kWhr are correct for both lower (Night) and higher (Day) rates. The on line Statements are not there now for that period. They were there when I checked the first time.



I have asked the lady to look out for a reply from Flow as, of course, I do not have direct access to read emails they send to her. It is good of you all to help out with this, thanks very much. I am very pleased to benefit from your experience, thanks.



Green garnet

Green_garnet

I have just noticed post # 10 below this one looks like spam. If it is, how can it be reported as I am not sure where the spam button is or how the process works, thanks?

Here is an update from an email sent to the lady today from her energy company. The revised Statement today is exactly the same in every way as the first revised Statement. My calculations show that the Revised 'Corrected' Statement still shows an overcharge for the Daily Standing Charge. With the lady's permission I have asked them to look at this again and can only hope they will agree.


As I mentioned before, the main thing is that the Economy 7 day rates and the lower night rates per kWhr have been amended and the lady is pleased to have received a refund in her energy account.


I hoped the second 'corrected' revised Statement would be accurate but at least it is better than before.
If anyone would comment on the email reply, which I have copied below, I'll let the lady know, thanks.


Green garnet

"We thank you for your email

We are unable to reproduce your missing statements as they had to be rebilled as they did not show your Economy 7 rates

Please see attached your corrected statement reflecting this

Your next statement is due to be produced this weekend

Warm Regards"