We’d like to remind Forumites to please avoid political debate on the Forum.
This is to keep it a safe and useful space for MoneySaving discussions. Threads that are – or become – political in nature may be removed in line with the Forum’s rules. Thank you for your understanding.
IMPORTANT: Please make sure your posts do not contain any personally identifiable information (both your own and that of others). When uploading images, please take care that you have redacted all personal information including number plates, reference numbers and QR codes (which may reveal vehicle information when scanned).
📨 Have you signed up to the Forum's new Email Digest yet? Get a selection of trending threads sent straight to your inbox daily, weekly or monthly!
The Forum now has a brand new text editor, adding a bunch of handy features to use when creating posts. Read more in our how-to guide
BW Legal responded to me - Need help responding
igotafine
Posts: 22 Forumite
Hey all,
I roughly copied and edited one of the responses I found on this website to send to BW Legal in response to their LBC.
The letter that was sent to them:
Dear Sirs,
Thank you for your letter of claim. This is regarding accounts
You have now sent a Letter Before Claim. However, your letter contains insufficient detail of the claim and fails to provide any photographic evidence. It does not even say what the cause of action is. Nor does it contain any mention of what evidence your client intends to rely on, or enclose copies of such evidence.
This action on the part of your client is a clear breach of its pre-action obligations set out in the Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct, with which as solicitors you must surely be familiar (and with which your client, a serial litigator of small claims, must also be familiar). As you (and your client) must know, the Practice Direction binds all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time.
Nobody, including your client, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction.
I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:
1. an explanation of the cause of action
2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
4. what the details of the claim are (where it is claimed the car was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated, what contractual breach (if any) is being claimed)
5. a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim
6. a copy of any alleged contract with the driver
7. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
8. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
9. If they have added anything on to the original charge, what that represents and how it has been calculated.
I am clearly entitled to this information under paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c) of the Practice Direction. I also need it in order to comply with my own obligations under paragraph 6(b).
If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) !!!8211; Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and (c) and 16.
Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.
Yours faithfully,
They have now responded and I'll just post the key points of their letter below:
1. Our Client's cause of action is that you breached the Terms and Conditions of the contract which you entered into by parking your vehicle in the car park, by parking without making payment of the parking charge.
2. Our Client is pursuing you as the Registered Keeper of the vehicle.
3. Our Client does not intend to rely on Schedule 4 of Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.
4. The details of the claim are that your vehicle without the parking charge being paid. The car was observed entering ****** car park at ***** on *******, and exited at ****.
The £100.00 charge is regarded as a charge for contravening the Terms and Conditions. The sum payable following the issue of the Parking Charge Notice occurs on the happening of a specific event (i.e. a material breach of the Terms and Conditions) and is therefore a core term of Our Client's contract with you.
It is irrelevant whether or not the charge as displayed bears any relation to the cost for parking (even where there is no cost involved). Our Client relies on the leading authority of ParkingEye Limited v Beavis [2015) UKSC 67, where the Supreme Court held that Parking Charge Notice charges, like this charge, serve a legitimate commercial interest. The relevant car parking Codes of Practice, also give guidance that £I00.00 is a reasonable sum to charge.
The signage in situ makes provision for Our Client to recover any additional costs (Contractual Costs) incurred by them in relation to the Parking Charge Notice. The Contractual Costs referred to above formed part of the Terms and Conditions (of the parking contract) which were accepted by you in the course of staying at the car park. Save for the fact that the sum of
£60.00 attributable towards these costs are entirely reasonable for nature and type of work involved in recovering the parking charge, such costs are recoverable under the relevant parking code of practice.
5. Please be aware that the contract between Our Client and the landowner is a legally privileged document which you have no right to inspect. However, should this matter progress to court, the contract will be adduced as evidence.
6. The Parking Charge Notice which you have been issued with is for a breach of contract. The only right which you have to enter the land in question are on the Terms and Conditions which apply. The signs are prominent and the Terms and Conditions are clearly displayed. It is unnecessary to apply an analysis of offer, acceptance and consideration quite simply
because the contract was formed on mutual promises. By parking your vehicle in the car park you have entered into a unilateral contract with Our Client. Acceptance does not have to be communicated, the act of parking your vehicle is acceptance.
7. Our Client is under no obligation to supply this.
8. As established members of the British Parking Association, Our Client adheres to their Code of Practice for Private enforcement on Private Land and Unregulated Car Parks ('Code of Practice'). This Code of Practice gives recommendation in regards to the signage within the car park. The signs within the car park comply with the recommendations in the Code of
Practice and are therefore deemed reasonable.
9. £I00.00 remains unpaid for the Parking Charge Notice. Additionally, you are also liable for our £60.00 instructions fee as your file has been passed to us.
My thoughts...
It just seems like all the advice I've been given and used is just disregarded by BW Legal.
Just to mention, the only photographic evidence they provided were pictures of the signs that mention the price and cost. Not one picture of the car entering or leaving. Is the next step to ask for actual evidence of the car being there? I'm sure they do have this evidence, though, and me asking is only going to delay the process, until they send it again. But should I still ask for this? Anything else I should be mentioning? I'm really no good with laws and the terminologies and this all doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
I'm really grateful for all the advice I've found on this site so far.
Any help is really appreciated. Thank you!
I roughly copied and edited one of the responses I found on this website to send to BW Legal in response to their LBC.
The letter that was sent to them:
Dear Sirs,
Thank you for your letter of claim. This is regarding accounts
You have now sent a Letter Before Claim. However, your letter contains insufficient detail of the claim and fails to provide any photographic evidence. It does not even say what the cause of action is. Nor does it contain any mention of what evidence your client intends to rely on, or enclose copies of such evidence.
This action on the part of your client is a clear breach of its pre-action obligations set out in the Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct, with which as solicitors you must surely be familiar (and with which your client, a serial litigator of small claims, must also be familiar). As you (and your client) must know, the Practice Direction binds all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time.
Nobody, including your client, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction.
I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:
1. an explanation of the cause of action
2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
4. what the details of the claim are (where it is claimed the car was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated, what contractual breach (if any) is being claimed)
5. a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim
6. a copy of any alleged contract with the driver
7. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
8. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
9. If they have added anything on to the original charge, what that represents and how it has been calculated.
I am clearly entitled to this information under paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c) of the Practice Direction. I also need it in order to comply with my own obligations under paragraph 6(b).
If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) !!!8211; Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and (c) and 16.
Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.
Yours faithfully,
They have now responded and I'll just post the key points of their letter below:
1. Our Client's cause of action is that you breached the Terms and Conditions of the contract which you entered into by parking your vehicle in the car park, by parking without making payment of the parking charge.
2. Our Client is pursuing you as the Registered Keeper of the vehicle.
3. Our Client does not intend to rely on Schedule 4 of Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.
4. The details of the claim are that your vehicle without the parking charge being paid. The car was observed entering ****** car park at ***** on *******, and exited at ****.
The £100.00 charge is regarded as a charge for contravening the Terms and Conditions. The sum payable following the issue of the Parking Charge Notice occurs on the happening of a specific event (i.e. a material breach of the Terms and Conditions) and is therefore a core term of Our Client's contract with you.
It is irrelevant whether or not the charge as displayed bears any relation to the cost for parking (even where there is no cost involved). Our Client relies on the leading authority of ParkingEye Limited v Beavis [2015) UKSC 67, where the Supreme Court held that Parking Charge Notice charges, like this charge, serve a legitimate commercial interest. The relevant car parking Codes of Practice, also give guidance that £I00.00 is a reasonable sum to charge.
The signage in situ makes provision for Our Client to recover any additional costs (Contractual Costs) incurred by them in relation to the Parking Charge Notice. The Contractual Costs referred to above formed part of the Terms and Conditions (of the parking contract) which were accepted by you in the course of staying at the car park. Save for the fact that the sum of
£60.00 attributable towards these costs are entirely reasonable for nature and type of work involved in recovering the parking charge, such costs are recoverable under the relevant parking code of practice.
5. Please be aware that the contract between Our Client and the landowner is a legally privileged document which you have no right to inspect. However, should this matter progress to court, the contract will be adduced as evidence.
6. The Parking Charge Notice which you have been issued with is for a breach of contract. The only right which you have to enter the land in question are on the Terms and Conditions which apply. The signs are prominent and the Terms and Conditions are clearly displayed. It is unnecessary to apply an analysis of offer, acceptance and consideration quite simply
because the contract was formed on mutual promises. By parking your vehicle in the car park you have entered into a unilateral contract with Our Client. Acceptance does not have to be communicated, the act of parking your vehicle is acceptance.
7. Our Client is under no obligation to supply this.
8. As established members of the British Parking Association, Our Client adheres to their Code of Practice for Private enforcement on Private Land and Unregulated Car Parks ('Code of Practice'). This Code of Practice gives recommendation in regards to the signage within the car park. The signs within the car park comply with the recommendations in the Code of
Practice and are therefore deemed reasonable.
9. £I00.00 remains unpaid for the Parking Charge Notice. Additionally, you are also liable for our £60.00 instructions fee as your file has been passed to us.
My thoughts...
It just seems like all the advice I've been given and used is just disregarded by BW Legal.
Just to mention, the only photographic evidence they provided were pictures of the signs that mention the price and cost. Not one picture of the car entering or leaving. Is the next step to ask for actual evidence of the car being there? I'm sure they do have this evidence, though, and me asking is only going to delay the process, until they send it again. But should I still ask for this? Anything else I should be mentioning? I'm really no good with laws and the terminologies and this all doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
I'm really grateful for all the advice I've found on this site so far.
Any help is really appreciated. Thank you!
0
Comments
-
Why not send a SAR to the operator? Then you know all the data they hold about your vehicle?0
-
Yep, look up the parking firm's Privacy page and email their DPO, a SAR.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Thank you for the advice. If they've sent a letter to the correct address doesn't that mean that they've gone to the DVLA to get my info and therefore have details of the car?
If I request a SAR, will this take longer than 14 days? As I have only 14 days to reply to BW Legal.0 -
Yes but this is the standard advice for this stage, to get a SAR. Who cares about an arbitrary 14 days - you will get a court claim so why owrry about this daft posturing stage?
See the parking firm's hand, by getting a SAR from them by email (see their Privacy page).PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
The are claiming against the RK, but not relying on POFA, how does that work?
They have made reference to Beavis, are the circumstance similar?
They have added an unlawful £60 instruction fee.
This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of alleged contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.
Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and others have already been named and shamed in the House of Commons as have Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each week, hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned. They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct
The problem has become so widespread that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. It has even been suggested that some of these companies have links with organised crime.
Watch the video of the Second Reading and committee stage in the House of Commons recently. MPs have a very low opinion of this industry.
http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41
https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-07-19/debates/2b90805c-bff8-4707-8bdc-b0bfae5a7ad5/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill(FirstSitting)
and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by in the not too distant future..You never know how far you can go until you go too far.0 -
Also, could someone please look at their responses to my questions. I followed the advice given here and I really have no idea if what their saying is correct or if I can respond to this and if I still have a chance of winning.0
-
None of us will read that dross from BW Legal again - it's all a template. Seen it before.
Nothing different at all from all the other cases and we see reported wins 99% of the time.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Thank you The Deep, this helps me quite a bit. I'll get drafting a response letter and mention some of the things you've just mentioned. I did notice that their letter doesn't seem very lawful, especially that it just ignores the cases I mentioned and says they do not intend to rely on that.
I just never know exactly what is wrong and how to respond.
Thanks again!0 -
You won't be responding to them, you will be doing as advised already.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Thanks Coupon-mad, one question, I know it's not right of them to do but what are my course of actions? Do I just ignore them until they take me to court? Do I keep responding to them? I'm sorry, I'm really new to this and just need a push in the right direction.0
This discussion has been closed.
Confirm your email address to Create Threads and Reply
Categories
- All Categories
- 354.4K Banking & Borrowing
- 254.4K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
- 455.4K Spending & Discounts
- 247.3K Work, Benefits & Business
- 604.1K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
- 178.5K Life & Family
- 261.6K Travel & Transport
- 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
- 16K Discuss & Feedback
- 37.7K Read-Only Boards