Adverse Possession

SmashedAvacado

Has anyone on this thread suggested getting a stat dec from the seller about the position of the fence?
That is almost certainly what the seller should be doing as an absolute minimum.

If the fence has been in place for over 20 years, then it is very much in the buyer's interest for this not to be raised with the neighbour at the moment. Why put the neighbour on notice that there is an issue?

It is likely that the land can be registered in your name, but to be honest, you are better of taking the stat dec, going ahead with the purchase, and when you come to sell, making a stat dec confirming the same thing. Or you could apply to change the register to fit in with the position as is.

You could ask the seller for any photos showing the fence - eg the property details from when they bought - which some people do keep.

olgadapolga

franklee wrote: »

Thanks, that explains it.

Am still confused if OP's mentions of "the neighbours" and "one of the neighbours" are all from the same household or different ones. Maybe fence, planning and overgrown plant are all the same household or maybe not.

The plant in question is at the back of the garden so I presume that he is a different neighbour.

The vendors are selling as the property was being used solely as business premises (they didn't live there) and this aspect of the business has transferred to another area. That may explain why they weren't bothered about the garden/fence. To them, it was probably a pain as they had to maintain it a bit (ie, cut the grass).

The house has been business premises since new, according to the title deeds. It's just been changing hands as the business has changed, with people retiring etc. The vendors now appear only interested in getting rid of the property asap so that they can get their hands on the sale proceeds.

We had allowed for the costs of converting the property back to a house but a lot of other expenses are being thrown up, things that my solicitor says that "should" be sorted out before exchange but the vendors are refusing to contemplate negotiations about these issues. We haven't really pushed about these as my husband is still very keen on the house and was prepared to accept these costs.

Ratty neighbours can be dealt with. I find the best way of dealing with bullies is to stand up to them from the outset; I wasn't really in a position to tell the neighbour to go away as it wasn't my house. If it had been my house and he'd dared to walk in like that, he would have been ejected PDQ.

My biggest concern is if we buy the house, will that strip of land become a problem for a potential buyer? Or, put another way, are we going to be stuck with a house that is difficult to sell because of it?

My husband really likes the house (me, not so much although I could live there) but I believe that he's not really thinking it through properly.

davidmcn

olgadapolga wrote: »

My biggest concern is if we buy the house, will that strip of land become a problem for a potential buyer? Or, put another way, are we going to be stuck with a house that is difficult to sell because of it?

Like I said above, if you've got title to everything you occupy then it doesn't seem to be much of a problem from your point of view. The neighbour however is missing a title to the strip of garden they're occupying - so they are more likely to encounter problems.

It would be nice to sort out the discrepancy, but often the cost of resolving these things (and getting mortgage lenders etc involved) is more than the value of the land in question.

And that assumes there even is a discrepancy and it's not within normal margins of error.

olgadapolga

davidmcn wrote: »

Like I said above, if you've got title to everything you occupy then it doesn't seem to be much of a problem from your point of view. The neighbour however is missing a title to the strip of garden they're occupying - so they are more likely to encounter problems.

It would be nice to sort out the discrepancy, but often the cost of resolving these things (and getting mortgage lenders etc involved) is more than the value of the land in question.

And that assumes there even is a discrepancy and it's not within normal margins of error.

It seems that the neighbour would be able to claim adverse possession, so regardless of the title plan for the property, the neighbours are in the better position.

We're cash buyers. I don't think that any mortgage provider would lend on this property in its current (uninhabitable) state. There's a lot of work to do (which we knew about and allowed for when we made an offer for it) before it's a functional house again.

Lulu0110

Surely there is a requirement for the vendor to confirm or deny any problems with the neighbours? Sounds like they are planning to pretend otherwise. The vendor seems to be not bothered/not entirely truthful and the neighbour seems irate before you even move in. I'd find another house.

olgadapolga

Lulu0110 wrote: »

Surely there is a requirement for the vendor to confirm or deny any problems with the neighbours? Sounds like they are planning to pretend otherwise. The vendor seems to be not bothered/not entirely truthful and the neighbour seems irate before you even move in. I'd find another house.

Indeed. I have in my possession the property information form which clearly states that there are no disputes or complaints regarding this property or a property nearby. Signed by the four vendors.

After the neighbour entered the property uninvited during the recent viewing, I asked my solicitor to ask the vendors again if there were any issues with the neighbours and their solicitor said that there weren't any.

As mentioned, they are selling this to dispose of a business asset. They don't care about anything except the proceeds of the sale.

I am already searching for another property. DH is not keen on the idea of looking again as we've already invested some money (fees, searches, etc) whereas I'd rather lose a bit now than a lot later. I don't want to make an expensive mistake.

konark

New stricter rules for claiming 'Adverse Possession' were introduced in about 2003, it is now necessary not just to have been in possession of land 12 years but to inform the registered owners of the land (assuming the land is registered) after 10 years (or 2 years before applying) that you intend to apply. If the registered owners object it is difficult to proceed. Have your vendors received any such notification?


How have they responded to the standard question about any disputes with neighbours?


Honestly I'd be inclined to find another house rather than getting into a boundary dispute.Your future neighbours seem to be land-grabbers and irrational bad-tempered oafs. Failing that, explain to the vendors that it is in their interest to get this sorted as it is not just putting you off but will put off other buyers also.

olgadapolga

konark wrote: »

New stricter rules for claiming 'Adverse Possession' were introduced in about 2003, it is now necessary not just to have been in possession of land 12 years but to inform the registered owners of the land (assuming the land is registered) after 10 years (or 2 years before applying) that you intend to apply. If the registered owners object it is difficult to proceed. Have your vendors received any such notification?


How have they responded to the standard question about any disputes with neighbours?


Honestly I'd be inclined to find another house rather than getting into a boundary dispute.Your future neighbours seem to be land-grabbers and irrational bad-tempered oafs. Failing that, explain to the vendors that it is in their interest to get this sorted as it is not just putting you off but will put off other buyers also.

The land is registered to the property I am in the process of purchasing.

The fence has been in place for "over twenty years" according to the vendors.

A claim for adverse possession has not been made/notified to the vendors.

The vendors claimed that there have been no disputes, both on the standard form and when they were asked again after the neighbour stormed in during a viewing.

The vendors have said that they will not sort the boundary issue out as the property is "sold as viewed".

Not sure if the neighbours with the extra land are land-grabbers as they've only been there for four years and the fence has been there for over twenty years. Their solicitor would not have known that the fence was incorrectly positioned from the title plan.

My main worry was about selling the property with this problem later on as I don't want to stay in this house forever. My solicitor said that the boundary issue could be resolved one way or the other once we'd purchased the property, either by repositioning the fence (with neighbour's agreement) or by the neighbour claiming the land. Either way, the plan with land registry would then be correct and there would not be a problem with boundaries for a future sale.My solicitor has suggested asking for a reduction in price because of the boundary issue and possible legal fees arising from it. From what I've gleaned of the vendors, they'll say no.

moneyistooshorttomention

So the bit of garden the neighbours are trying to nick is 2' x 60' = 120 square feet. If that land was there as one neat square it could be, for instance, an area of 10' x 12' (as that would also equal 120 square feet).

I'd certainly object to losing a 10' x 12' patch of garden to someone trying to nick it from me. The question is whether you object because that area of land is differently configured to that (ie you might or might not see it as being as useful laid out like that).

In your position I guess the choice boils down to:
- Don't "ask" but "tell" the vendors that, as the house is worth correspondingly less with that patch of garden being inaccessible and it does leave a "nasty taste in mouth" to lose some garden to a neighbour doing that - you are reducing your offer accordingly by £x (as the house is worth that bit less minus a bit of its garden).

- Have your solicitor point out at the time that any other would-be buyer that came along would probably notice the nicked bit of garden too (as 2' is wider than the 18" tolerance on boundaries allowed by Land Registry). In other words they might as well proceed with the buyer they have ("bird in the hand, rather than two in the bush" thinking).

OR

- Tell the vendor to take back that bit of the garden or you are taking back your offer on the house (chances are they won't take it back - and so you'd have to withdraw your offer).

bouicca21

I don't understand the fuss. The fence has been there for yonks, you can't lose something you have never had, and the neighbours have every right to formalise the matter by applying for adverse possession. That would sort out the issue for any future sale. Phrases involving storms and teacups come to mind.