Difficult Landlord.

dmcinnis

Hi,

We're having a bit of trouble with our landlord, so I wanted to get some advice on where we stand currently and what we can push on.

- I've lived at the property (with 3 others) since August 2017, over which time we have been on an AST agreement. Each of the agreements has lasted for 6 months and then renewed with relatively little hassle.

- The latest AST came to an end in September 2018. Around 4 weeks prior to this, the current lead tenant and another tenant advised the landlord they would be leaving the property at the end of the month. The landlord confirmed all was fine as long as we replaced the tenants in time for the new tenancy to start on October 1st. I took over as lead tenant, sorted the new tenants, completed the new AST and sent back to the landlord around September 15th for him to sign.

- After chasing every couple of days for 2 weeks or so, the landlord eventually came back to me on September 29th, 2 days before the new tenants were due to move in to say that he wasn't keen on signing again for 6 months as he had a planning application pending on the property and may want to develop earlier than the 6 months if approved. He said he was happy to agree verbally that he would give us 'an extra months notice and potentially a month rent free' in exchange for not committing for 6 months as initially agreed. The whole conversation which quite vague and he was clearly keeping his options open.

- Over the last 5 weeks i've been pushing for something more concrete, ideally the 6 month tenancy, but at least an amended period so we have something in writing. He has resisted providing anything and continued to be vague around where we stand, mentioning that he needs to understand when he can get the building work started etc.

- Around two weeks ago, he forwarded us a deed of assignment form and asked that the new tenants sign it. He states that this is enough to give us some protection and is enough that the expired tenancy can be updated with new tenants and continue 'periodically' which I guess means he can kick us out with 1 months notice.

- Deposits were switched at our end when the old guys moved out and new guys moved in on October 1st. I've checked with the protection schemes today and nothing is held for our property. I'm waiting for him to confirm if there is a ref number I need.

Ultimately i'd like to know if we're in the position to push for the AST, or just at the mercy of him giving us 1 months notice whenever he decides to. Should the deposit not have been protected, what is the best route to take.

Any advice will be appreciated.

Thanks.

anselld

He is not obliged to offer another 6 months if he doesn't want to.

Deed of assignment should really be signed by new tenants, old tenants and existing tenants if done properly but that is not really a big issue.

If deposit is not protected then it is to your advantage as far as potential notice is concerned because any notice given by the Landlord will be invalid unless he first returns the deposit in full. You would also be abe to claim penalty up to 3x deposit through the Courts.

G_M

1) At present your old tenancy continues. When the fixed term ended, it automatically became periodic (or 'rolling') on 1st October. However, the original joint tenants remain 'The tenants' with ongoing liablity (and rights) under that tenancy. The fact that some of them have 'moved out', does not end their tenancy.

Deposits were switched at our end when the old guys moved out and new guys moved in

I can only assume you mean that the 'new tenants' (who actually are not tenants at all) gave some money to the 'old tenants' who moved out (who are still tenants). That has no legal meaning other than that some people who hardly knew each other gave each other some cash for no apparent reason!

The original deposit paid when the original tenancy started remains unchanged - though it should be protected. Is it? Have you checked? see
* Deposits: payment, protection and return

2) at present it seems the 'new tenants' are actually lodgers. You are their landlord. They owe you rent. They have no legal relationship with your landlord.

3) there are now several options:
a) do nothing. You (and the other now-departed tenants) remain 'The Tenants' on a periodic tenancy. If the landlord wishes to evict he must serve you a S21 Notice giving 2 calender months before going to court. If you wish to leave it is 1 tenancy period. see:

* Ending/renewing an AST: what happens when a fixed term ends? How can a LL or tenant end a tenancy? What is a periodic tenancy?


b) Assign the existing tenancy as requested by the Landlord. The Deed should be signed by all outgoing tenants, the incoming tenants, the remaining tenants, and the landlord - and witnessed. The new tenants' names are then substituted for the old names, but the tenancy itself is unchanged - ie it is still the original, now periodic, tenancy (see a above re ending it).

c) a new fixed term tenancy (eg 3 months, 6 months whatever) is created and signed by all the remaining/new tenants. The original deposit is released and returned by the landlord, and a new deposit taken from the new tenants, and protected (see deposit link above).

dmcinnis

Thanks for the response.

I can only assume you mean that the 'new tenants' (who actually are not tenants at all) gave some money to the 'old tenants' who moved out (who are still tenants). That has no legal meaning other than that some people who hardly knew each other gave each other some cash for no apparent reason!

Effectively yes, although arguably we didn't have much choice but to take this approach as initially the landlord had asked to find new tenants, complete the paperwork he emailed to us and send back to him which was all done, then was unresponsive, then changed his mind on the terms.

I've checked with the DPS and the deposit is protected solely under the old lead tenants name. I understand this protection runs until the account is closed. The landlord has stated that the completed deed of assignment is enough to switch the names on the tenancy and continue periodically. However is it enough to change the name(s) on the deposit scheme also ? Should we be pushing the landlord to do this ?

G_M

Is the lead tenant named on the deposit registration one of the tenants who has left? If yes, I'd be inclined to press the landlord to amend this with the scheme.


However it does not matter a lot since
a) the deposit IS protected
b) the Deed od assignment will show that the departed tenant is no longer a tenant (his name having been assigned to an incoming tenant)
c) it is the landlords obligation to return the deposit to the tenants, and b) above proves the original lead tenant is no longer a tenant

saajan_12

dmcinnis wrote: »

Hi,

We're having a bit of trouble with our landlord, so I wanted to get some advice on where we stand currently and what we can push on.

- I've lived at the property (with 3 others) since August 2017, over which time we have been on an AST agreement. Each of the agreements has lasted for 6 months and then renewed with relatively little hassle.

- The latest AST came to an end in September 2018. - are you sure? The tenancy ending means you served valid noticce or the LL got a court order. More likely the fixed term ended in Sept 18, but the tenancy continued as a periodic after that. Around 4 weeks prior to this, the current lead tenant and another tenant advised the landlord they would be leaving the property at the end of the month. - so all of you could have vacated by the end of the fixed term without notice, or the tenancy continues with the departing tenatns still liable, regardless of whether they physically sleep there. The landlord confirmed all was fine as long as we replaced the tenants in time for the new tenancy to start on October 1st. I took over as lead tenant, sorted the new tenants, completed the new AST and sent back to the landlord around September 15th for him to sign. - okay, so the expectation of a new AST shows the conversation wasn't intended to be a firm verbal agreement.. So what did you do to 'sort the new tenants? If they moved in before the new AST, what made you think this was okay? They could only have been your lodgers..

- After chasing every couple of days for 2 weeks or so, the landlord eventually came back to me on September 29th, 2 days before the new tenants were due to move in to say that he wasn't keen on signing again for 6 months as he had a planning application pending on the property and may want to develop earlier than the 6 months if approved. He said he was happy to agree verbally that he would give us 'an extra months notice and potentially a month rent free' in exchange for not committing for 6 months as initially agreed. The whole conversation which quite vague and he was clearly keeping his options open. - perhaps disingenuous, but within his rights to continue on the tenancy as is, without signing a new agreement. The original tenants are still liable under a periodic tenancy unless you all vacate before 30 Sept. If the LL is planning on developing it the near future, it would take ~4-8 months just to evict through courts, but if he grants another fixed term, he would have to wait 4 months before even starting that process.

- Over the last 5 weeks i've been pushing for something more concrete, ideally the 6 month tenancy, but at least an amended period so we have something in writing. He has resisted providing anything and continued to be vague around where we stand, mentioning that he needs to understand when he can get the building work started etc. - you do have something concrete, the last AST. The original tenants are liable. If you want something concrete with the new occupiers, they are your lodgers, you are their landlord. You could write up a licence / lodging agreement.

- Around two weeks ago, he forwarded us a deed of assignment form and asked that the new tenants sign it. He states that this is enough to give us some protection and is enough that the expired tenancy can be updated with new tenants and continue 'periodically' which I guess means he can kick us out with 1 months notice. - Sounds like he's doing this properly! It is 'enough' to assign the current tenancy to the current occupiers - though this should be done as a deed, signed by the LL, new tenants and outgoing tenants, with everything witnessed. There's nothing wrong with periodic, you can leave with 1 tenancy period and the LL can evict by serving a 2 calendar month S21 notice and getting a court order (unless stated otherwise in your latest contract)

- Deposits were switched at our end when the old guys moved out and new guys moved in on October 1st. I've checked with the protection schemes today and nothing is held for our property. I'm waiting for him to confirm if there is a ref number I need. - do you mean the new tenants paid the old tenants money equivalent to the deposit originally paid to the LL? If so, thats either legally meaningless, or that's a deposit your lodgers paid to you as their landlord. Either way, its irrelevant to the main landlord (owner). The LL owes the full deposit back to his tenants ie the original tenants unless the deed of assignment has been executed.

Ultimately i'd like to know if we're in the position to push for the AST, - no, the LL can choose to do nothing / assign to the new occupiers / grant an AST or just at the mercy of him giving us 1 months notice whenever he decides to. - thats 2 months notice, plus going to court. IF you wanted more security, you should have asked for a longer fixed term at the start. Should the deposit not have been protected, what is the best route to take. - Yes, you need to check whether it is, or check whether you received a cert / PI.

Any advice will be appreciated.

Thanks.

There is currently a valid tenancy between the LL and the original tenants, on a periodic basis. The LL is under no obligation to do anything, but the possible OPTIONS open to him are:

1) Do nothing
New occupiers become your lodgers, who pay you rent. You and the other original tenants are jointly & severally liable for the full rent and its up to you to chase your lodgers independently. Then tenancy continues periodically and can end if you serve 1 tenancy period notice or the LL serves 2 calendar months notice + gets court order

2) Assign tenancy to current occupiers
The new tenants, old tenants and LL sign a deed of assignment, so the new tenants step into the shoes of the old tenants. The new tenants are jointly liable to the head LL for the full rent. The deposit must continue to be protected but no need for a new cert / protection etc as the tennacy continues).

3) Grant new AST to the new tenants
This coudl be a contractual periodic tenancy from the start, or start as a fixed term. However the LL wouldn't be able to serve S21 notice until after 4 months, so he may not like this option.