Communal Parking - Flats

mouthwash

Hi forum people,

I have a situation, that I've done countless hours of reading on and cannot find something similar to my own. Could be Google failing me or most likely me failing myself.

I'll start with the background:

I live in a block of flats (I am the leaseholder), reasonably nice area and have lived here for 2 years now. Recently the management agent has decided to, with the agreement of the residents association, issue parking permits (2 per flat) as parking was becoming a bit of a nightmare. There are no allocated spots and is a total free-for-all with most people putting one car in front of their garage and one in the bays.

My situation is unique in the fact that my garage is rotated 90 degrees to provide adequate space for people to drive around the communal area in the flats. What this means is that I have been afforded a large amount of space in front of my garage (enough to get 3 cars horizontally from the garage). Only my partner and I can use the space as otherwise it restricts the access to our garage which obviously is mentioned in our lease.

Fast forward to the last 3 months, youths have identified our garage as a good place to hang around as there is a low slung wall and plenty of cover from the street to smoke/drink etc. Whilst it's a bit of a first world problem they are also sitting on and damaging our cars. The youths are reasonable enough and move when I ask but always come back and without turning into a curtain twitching nut I can't always catch them before they get tipsy.

I've contacted the police, the management agency and anyone else who will listen and so far sweet FA has been done. I've several crime reference numbers, plenty of emails (which has now degenerated into bickering) with the management agency and I've even contacted the freeholder.

My idea is to block the wall entirely with my cars (taking my car out of the garage ) meaning the kids have no where to sit and hide. The management agency will not budge on allocating me another pass or exempting one of my cars from a ticket in front of my garage, I do not and have not ever used a parking bay as I value my cars almost as much as I value waking up in the morning. So as a flat we take less parking than anyone else
.
I'm thinking about seeking some legal advice but thought you people may have been through similar before, I know it may seem petty to some people but coming out to find a footprint on the roof of the car or a bit of wood in the grille is somewhat aggravating especially as I'm so far from a public road!

My question to you fine people, is, can the permits be enforced legally? I do not own the land they are enforcing the permit on as even by my garage it's marked as communal land.

I've scoured my lease and it makes almost zero mention of the use of the communal land (only to say, do not block or restrict access), I have not had an updated lease and the permitting started after I moved in (maybe a year or so). There is the clause about the right to make amendments but obviously I've not had any amendments.

I've read people can reject the parking enforcement but that often refers to marked or allocated land. I'm really, really not trying to be greedy and take more than I'm owed - I just want to park in front of my garage and it's a shame that I haven't managed to resolve this.

Thanks to anyone who takes the time to read and respond. This wasn't supposed to be such a long post!

p.s I've also put up motion detection lights, CCTV signs etc and hasn't stopped them from sitting there.

Fruitcake

Has a parking scammer infested the site, or is the permit scheme managed by the MA?

Either way, if the permit scheme is not mentioned in your lease, there is no reason why you can't opt out of it.

Have you thought about putting vandal proof paint, or stickle strips, with a warning sign, on the wall where the people sit?

mouthwash

Fruitcake, thanks for the reply!

The permit scheme is managed by the MA, people have suggested such things but currently they're willing to sit on and damage my car whilst we're on good terms. God knows what would happen if I annoyed them and with the police not showing the slightest interest I'd like to find a solution that results in them leaving peacefully.

NeilCr

I wasn't going to post here again but...



I'll stay away from the permit issue and concentrate on the youths.

We had this issue on our estate. We did have to be very persistent with the police but, in the end, we got a PCSO down. We also discovered that one of the young men involved lived on the estate and we got the MA to write to his parents.

Those two things worked - no idea if it is of any use to you but I would say to keep reporting to the police.

mouthwash

NeilCr wrote: »

I wasn't going to post here again but...



I'll stay away from the permit issue and concentrate on the youths.

We had this issue on our estate. We did have to be very persistent with the police but, in the end, we got a PCSO down. We also discovered that one of the young men involved lived on the estate and we got the MA to write to his parents.

Those two things worked - no idea if it is of any use to you but I would say to keep reporting to the police.

We have had the PCSO down who suggest we put bird deterrents (plastic spikes like the ones you see in towns to stop pigeons) on the wall, yeah, where will they end up? Ripped off and in my tyres!

I will keep reporting it as I always do but justice seems to be a slow beast.

mouthwash

Fruitcake wrote: »

Either way, if the permit scheme is not mentioned in your lease, there is no reason why you can't opt out of it.

I was thinking more about this, how do I go about opting out? I'm assuming the same way as all of the other threads I've read with allocated bays etc?

The thing I'm trying hardest to avoid is a parking ticket as whilst it might not be enforceable I cannot be bothered with the hassle and would rather nip it in the bud before it's a thing.

It seems like such a purposefully confusing sector to know what your rights are.

mouthwash

Sorry to keep replying to my own thread, as I've already been in talks with the MA and I've stated that I do not want to be part of their parking scheme (which they've said I have no choice) I want to send them a final 'I'm out, sod off' type correspondence.

I've been through my lease and these are the key points, the second one whilst not directly stating I need a permit could cause an issue?

(2) A right of way for the Lessee and all persons authorised by the Lessee in common with the Lessor and the Lessesof the other parts of the said property and all others having a like right over and along the road coloured brown (on the plans this is all of the roads within the estate) on the aforesaid plan and on foot only over and along the paths of the said Property and on foot only over and along the halls passages stairs and landings of the block of flats containing said flat.

(x) No Lessee shall in any way encumber or interfere with the access to or egress from or place or leave rubbish upon any part of the said Property used in common with the other Lessees of the said Property nor allow any motor vehicle cycle perambulator cart bath-chair invalid carriage or other vehicle or thing or any goods or package belonging to such Lessee or his servants or agents to be placed or remain upon any part of the said Property used in common with the other Lessee.

Now, my law lingo is fairly abysmal at best but 1960s law lingo is even more confusing. Can anyone decipher what the second paragraph actually means, does that technically prohibit parking IF they really wanted to enforce it? What relation does that have to parking permits.

This is what the MA have come back and quoted to me as their 'legal' right to enforce.

Really dislike being bullied in my own residence!

Coupon-mad

Look into/read up on easements, and Kettel & Ors v Bloomfold Ltd [2012] EWHC 1422 (Ch).

https://www.newlawjournal.co.uk/content/your-space-or-mine

https://www.todaysconveyancer.co.uk/main-news/kettel-ors-v-bloomfold-ltd-2012-ewhc-1422-ch-25-may-2012/

HTH

NeilCr

Damnit. I knew I shouldn't have posted again! I've been thinking about this during a boring meeting today



I can see both sides - I'm with you as, in reality, no-one else can park in front of your garage so you should be able to park three cars there. I guess the MA is thinking that if I give you three permits you may start using the bays- and when other residents hear they will want three too. And that happens believe me. They'll find good reason.

There are posters with far more knowledge than me here. Not difficult. So, I won't comment on the legalities and what can - and cannot be done. I would say, though from other posts here - you opting out and still receiving tickets is very, very possible. Especially with the RA, apparently, being in favour the scheme.

You might just find dealing with the kids less hassle. I take it, if it wasn't for these kids, you'd be quite happy with only two permits?

Umkomaas

Nice to see you back @NeilCr.

I guess you may have fallen out with some of my comments previously, and I'm sorry you decided the best option was to opt out of this sub forum as a result. But, if I understand your general motives correctly, you are on the same side of fighting wrongs against the general public as we are, then I look forward to you picking up from where you left off and bringing your 'residential-related' slant on things in the context of parking.

I accept that you're not going to be a full, red-blooded warrior on this, but I'm sure we're all grateful and happy to have your views (sometimes differing from us) expressed. Please stick around; the forum is much richer for having you contribute.

NeilCr

Umkomaas wrote: »

Nice to see you back @NeilCr.

I guess you may have fallen out with some of my comments previously, and I'm sorry you decided the best option was to opt out of this sub forum as a result. But, if I understand your general motives correctly, you are on the same side of fighting wrongs against the general public as we are, then I look forward to you picking up from where you left off and bringing your 'residential-related' slant on things in the context of parking.

I accept that you're not going to be a full, red-blooded warrior on this, but I'm sure we're all grateful and happy to have your views (sometimes differing from us) expressed. Please stick around; the forum is much richer for having you contribute.

Thanks

That's kind.

It's more about me to be honest. That "discussion" (I mean that nicely) with you was the final straw but it had been coming for a while. I do get (and agree with) the underlying sentiments of this sub forum but struggle with the aggressive attitude of some regulars and with the assistance given to a few posters who have blatantly flouted the rules.

I am not saying it's wrong - it just doesn't work for me. And then I get overengaged so need to step away. I am working on being more chilled so will hang around and try and sit on my hands more (or not post after wine!)

Again. Thank you. I respect you and the way you post - and quite a few others here.