civil enforcement ltd unsuccessful appeal for disabled

rubydotoo

hi, my father received a £60 charge for overstaying by 10 minutes on private land car park, owned by an independent retailer, but car park contract with the CEL. this must be reasonably new arrangement because he has shopped there for years and he would have always been the same - slow.

there was no car park fees to be paid. it's free parking for 1.5 hours.

i appealed on his behalf. i explained he is 87, disabled with mobility restrictions and that this is a large unit for anyone to browse around with a coffee shop. he had all the time in the world as far as he is concerned, browsing and then had a cake and tea in the coffee shop.

2 weeks later he received the notice.

he is mortified he has done something wrong (not even a speeding fine in all his years driving) but it is the aggressive language used in the letters that are making him the most anxious.

CEL replied saying basically displaying a blue badge does not exempt him from the parking charge notice and that he needs to read the handbook which says he does not have privileges on private land.

fair enough to some extent, but to me, the whole point of him receiving a blue badge is because he has been considered at a disadvantage - he is slow - and in order to be treated equally he needs to be treated fairly and this should surely mean an adjustment of some sort.

my next option is to appeal to popla (i have a code) but i'm wondering if they will see this as a valid argument? my dad won't be able to cope with any more threatening letters in the meantime. or indeed afford to pay the £100 increase if it fails. he's on benefits as it is.

would people be saying just pay up and learn lesson or if the chances of getting it cancelled by popla are high then i'll go for it.

warm regards

Le_Kirk

You should try a search of the forum (use the Search this forum only on the first page) with EA 2010 as your search criterion and change the radio button from Threads to Posts. You will likely find lots of useful advice and some well crafted letters by Coupon-Mad. Here is a start.

rubydotoo

thanks. i did try. i also tried to link on the popla decisions equality act refused #782 (not that i have a clue what it would have been) but could find nothing. there was a lot on not paying a fee because they had a disabled badge but not free parking but overstaying. i did try but there is almost too much.

beamerguy

You will already know by reading this forum, that CEL are scammers.

Who is the stupid retailer who took on these clowns ???

CEL are approved members of the BPA where scamming is normal practice now.

The BPA make this statement about Grace periods

https://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods

“No time limit is specified. This is because it might take one person five minutes, but another person 10 minutes depending on various factors, not limited to disability.”

rubydotoo

also, my dad has a further 10 days to pay at the lower rate (because of the appeal) but if i go to popla, do we pay in the meantime or not? popla is not going to respond i doubt within the 10 days.

beamerguy

rubydotoo wrote: »

also, my dad has a further 10 days to pay at the lower rate (because of the appeal) but if i go to popla, do we pay in the meantime or not? popla is not going to respond i doubt within the 10 days.

Yes going to POPLA means you lose the discounted bribe.

BUT THAT IS ONLY IF YOU LOSE ?
If you win at POPLA there is nothing to pay

There are brilliant people on here who will guide you in this process

WHO IS THE RETAILER ..... more often than not this can be cancelled by the retailer

waamo

The BPA say there should be a minimum of 10 minute grace period. That is one appeal point. As a blue badge holder he should be afforded more than the bare minimum.

Unfortunately it looks like you named the driver as their notices are not usually compliant enough to transfer liability.

Their signage is often rubbish so include poor signage in an appeal. If it is good enough make them prove it.

Likewise make them prove they have landowner authority to operate and persue to court.

Look at recent POPLA appeals and use it as a framework. If you don't know if a point is applicable then include it. It is for them to prove their case not you to prove yours.

Castle

There are two grace periods; one at the beginning in order to find a parking place and read the terms and conditions, and then a minimum of 10 minutes to leave the car park at the end.

Ralph-y

please follow the above good advice ... do not send off your POPLA appeal untill you have posted it up here ... for advice ...




have you complained to the independent retailer, ? .... they can cancel this ... do not let them off the hook and brush you off.



this is what our MP's think ... try and get your MP on side ...




https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

and slightly longer, the committee stage

https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/d5550515-cce9-4185-83ec-754dadb7524a

''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.

and some quotes from the committe stage

"The other area is hospital parking, and I want to single out one company for some pretty shady practices. That is ParkingEye"
" is very clear to me that there is collusion between parking companies and solicitors’ firms—so-called roboclaims companies. "
"They are often set up adjacently and involve the same directors and personnel. Incidentally, the same personnel get involved in the so-called appeals bodies."
"Essentially, it is a money-making enterprise that takes advantage of motorists up and down the country. They operate in a very business-like fashion, which is why I call them roboclaims companies."
"The companies are jamming up parts of our legal system."
“I now pretty much know exactly how the parking companies and in particular the IPC have been running this scam for the past 5 years. Basically both of the appeals processes are a complete and utter sham, (and part of that sham is Gladstones Solicitors itself)”
"The appeals process at Excel/VCS is run by a team of minimum wage office workers with no legal knowledge or experience whatsoever,"
" It is claimed by the head of the appeals service (retired Judge Bryn Holloway) that this is a completely independent fair process, it is not”
"The letter mentions two individuals—Will Hurley and Bryn Holloway—and concludes this is a typical example of the clear collusion between the IPC, their members and the IAS"
"what we can do about roboclaims companies and solicitors firms that profit, often in shady ways"
" the very large amounts of money that can be involved in such scams—a company called Smart Parking was involved in one such scam on my patch"
"tightening up the rules regarding the unfair use of automatic number plate recognition" "BW Legal, regularly issues 10,000 county court judgments a month, and is known to have issued 28,000 in one month"
"They are jamming up our court system, and are often totally unjustified."
" because the lifeblood of trying to extort money from people is having access to their details."

All from Parking (Code of Practice) Bill (First sitting) Hansard







Ralph:cool:

Half_way

who is this independent retailer ?

Guys_Dad

OK. Here is your appeal

CE are members of the British Parking Association and are obliged to follow their rules. The BPA Code of Practice says


"13 Grace periods

13.1 If a driver is parking without your permission, or at
locations where parking is not normally permitted they
must have the chance to read the terms and conditions
before they enter into the ‘parking contract’ with you. If,
having had that opportunity, they decide not to park but
choose to leave the car park, you must provide them with
a reasonable grace period to leave, as they will not be
bound by your parking contract.
13.2 If the parking location is one where parking is normally
permitted, you must allow the driver a reasonable
grace period in addition to the parking event before
enforcement action is taken. In such instances the grace
period must be a minimum of 10 minutes.

13.2.a Vehicles are not permitted to park under the grace
period in spaces designated to specific users for example
Blue Badge holders. At all times vehicles must have
appropriate and valid permit e.g Blue Badge on display
for enforcement officer to inspect.

13.3 You must tell us the specific grace period at a site if our
compliance team or our agents ask what it is.

13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the
private car park after the parking contract has ended, before
you take enforcement action. If the location is one where
parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end
of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes."


In addition, and you will need to provide evidence of disability, the CoP says

Disabled motorists
16.1 The Equality Act 2010 says that providers of services to
the public must make ‘reasonable adjustments’ to remove
barriers which may discriminate against disabled people.
16.2 ‘Reasonable adjustments’ to prevent discrimination are likely
to include larger ‘disabled’ parking spaces near to the entrance
or amenities for disabled people whose mobility is impaired. It
also could include lowered payment machines and other ways
to pay if payment is required: for example, paying by phone.
You and your staff also need to realise that some disabled
people may take a long time to get to the payment machine."



This all depends upon you being up front when you tell us that it was "only 10 minutes" and not trimming it for sympathy !

So you put your appeal to POPLA in, making full use of these paragraphs, providing proof of father's disabilities.