Obtaining consent for extension in share of freehold

mrschaucer

Can we get this clear. Are you saying
1) You have a leasehold flat.
2) You have a share of the freehold of the block of flats/building containing the flats.
3) You personally have a SEPARATE freehold title to the patio area/garden area (or wherever) on which you want to build?
Confusion is arising because we don't know what the legal position is.

Tom99

MarianeJ wrote: »

Thanks for replying bouicca21,
Yes we own the land outside the freehold's demise.
The lease describes our demise, the Flat, as including:
- all drains pipes solely serving the Flat
- all windows and frames and all internal non-load bearing walls
- the linings and surfaces of the interior of all walls
- the ceiling & other surfaces (excl floor and ceiling joists)
- the garden and ground (as marked on the plan)

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I presume this patio is within the garden and ground as marked on the plan?[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]In which case:[/FONT]

• [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The patio is within the lease ie within what is demised to you.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The patio is part of the 'Flat' wherever the lease refers to the term 'Flat'[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Note that the freeholder does not have a demise, the term only refers to everything that is leased to you by the freeholder.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]You are not to make additions to the 'Flat' without consent so you are not allowed to put up a structure on the patio which would be an addition.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]You need consent but it cannot be unreasonable withheld.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]You are being held to ransom by the occupier of one of the flats, who is not even an owner, saying they will sue the other freeholders if permission is granted.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Maybe you need to do the same, because that's what it's beginning to sound like. You will sue the freeholders if they don't give you permission.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I am not sure whether you 'suing' would involve the Court of a tribunal.[/FONT]

[Deleted User]

Well I had the same thing done with similar to you. Was also thinking like you are at the moment, but then after talking to people, builders and reading up on these things I got a better understanding of it.
I live in a building of 4 x purpose built flat. The garden downstairs belong to the 2 x ground floor flat, but owned by the freehold company. 1 on each side. Just mean I get use of it for 980 years. The freeholder cannot take it off me till then. They do however get to say what I can or can’t do with it. Like build on it. At least this is how I see it.
Each flat owner owns share of the company that own the free hold. So when someone buys my flat they will also buy into the share of the freehold.
We wanted to build on the garden 2 x bedrooms as the garden was massive. To do this even thou the garden belong to our flat, we had to get permission from the free holder which is the other 3 flat owners. 2 of them agreed 1 did. The freehold contract does say vote’s majority wins.
Thou we were not allowed a slope roof as it means going into the above flat wall so flat roof is what we had. Fibre glass roof we got in the end.
A Year later it was built with no issues.

So I think your patio belong to your flat! But the freeholder own the lad the patio is on. So you would still need the freeholder permission to build on that land. Saying that you would need their permission to build the extention on to the main building. (Depend what the freeholder contract says.) I had to get permission to put a sky disk up on the main building.

As for neighbours unless they have a very good reason I would not worry too much.

Hope this helps

MarianeJ

Thank you Summer17

Glad you managed to get it done!! Well done for not giving up!

I see more clearly now. So you also had a leasehold with share of freehold; and it also said you garden was included in your demise?

bouicca21

I think we have finally got there. So yes you need the freeholder's permission.

I suspect that as part of the negotiations you will have to have every lease rewritten so that you take on a larger share of repairing and maintenance obligations.

You also need to obtain in writing just what the objections are.

PS what if the flat above you also wants to extend? Will your proposed foundations be sufficient? Have you tried suggesting to the standout that she too could increase the size of her flat?

MarianeJ

We asked planning for them but they said we were forbidden to build a terrace as it wouldn't meet planning requirements; the main reason for that is that their flat is too low considering the garden is 70cm above ground, they'd be in too present and same for the building next door.. privacy issues and noise pollution etc; so for sure they'd never be able to build an extension.. we considered everything we could think of, we designed the terrace, we were ready to make that effort but then planning said they couldn't, and despite that it became the condition to meet otherwise they wouldn't grant consent and sue everyone else if they were to give us consent... the condition was also that we go through planning for them, including paying the architect fees, the surveyors, engineers, and the cost of building the terrace and new french windows. At the beginning we agreed on doing the same size of the flat above them (80cm deep) but they went onto asking 1.3m which is basically matching the other side, so they can add a table with chairs, meaning they'd be fully overlooking our garden, at a really low level.... so this would put us in a huge disadvantage... their window is already going all the way to the floor which planning already said wasn't appropriate.. so much wish we could find a compromise, i always tried being understanding and accommodating but it went to such extreme and unreasonable request that I run out of ideas... hopefully they'll understand that and be happy for us to do the green roof they asked as it'd definitely create a nicer view than the existing..

MarianeJ

I call it patio but on the plan it is just called the garden, the limitation is where the flat ends basically; so look at the patio as the garden, does that changes?

[Deleted User]

MarianeJ wrote: »

Thank you Summer17

Glad you managed to get it done!! Well done for not giving up!

I see more clearly now. So you also had a leasehold with share of freehold; and it also said you garden was included in your demise?

Make sure you keep all email and written consent from the free holder as you will need this when you go to land registry to get the plan change.
I wasn’t aware that when we finish our build and then went to land registry to get our plan change, That we were supposed to get permission from our mortgage company too. Reason being is
While it being built, if you run out of funds it prob de value your property.
They will ask how you going to fund it and think they might ask for proof.
Weather you have enough funds to complete the project + more in case things turns up costing more money.
The solicitor did say it common people don’t tell them because they did not know. So before I could change everything and even thou I built the extension already still had to get their permission from mortgage company before could update our land registry.
We also offer the other flat owners if they were interested in doing an extension as it would help on cost but they said no.

AnotherJoe

MarianeJ wrote: »

All we need is 2 people to consent, but for that they need to be reassured that they wont be sued for giving us consent and my lawyer hasnt been very explicative about how to communicate that message... all i know is that she d end up paying for her own lawsuit if she was to sue the freehold and lose the case (which he said is extremely likely).

Literally, that reassurance as an absolute is not possible.

I could sue you. I'd lose of course but I could still sue you.

You cannot give a reassurance she will not sue, how could you?
You might be able to get a reassurance via the opinion of a legal expert that the odds of her winning a court case would be very low, (and they would likely be covered by legal insurance on their household insurance policies?), but it depends if they are willing to go down that route. The only near certain way of not being sued is not to give consent (and she could always sue anyway of course)


I suppose what you could do, and perhaps you should since this is all on you anyway, is to provide a legally binding contract to them that you will cover all their legal costs in the event that they are sued. Are you willing to do that? (and if not, why should they take on such a liabilty?)

eddddy

Realistically, you have to find an amicable solution to this before moving forward - otherwise your flat will become virtually unsaleable.

Nobody will buy a leasehold flat and a 'share of freehold' from you, where there is:

• an ongoing possibility/threat of legal action against the leaseholder for breaching a covenant
• the threat of legal action against the freeholders for failing to enforce a covenant
• or even a web of ongoing disputes between various parties

Your solicitor suggests things like other parties are unlikely to take legal action because of the costs involved - but that's not really going to reassure prospective buyers. (i.e "It's unlikely you'll be taken to court, but if you are, your legal bills are likely to be very high.")