Letter Before Claim - Gladstones [Residential Parking]

otterpanda

Hi all,

I'm hoping I haven't missed something in the Newbies post, so I'm sorry if I have regarding Letter Before Claims. I have seen somebody in the same position at the moment, so have been reading that thread but don't want to hijack.

I've received an LBC through from Gladstones Solicitors on Friday relating to a PCN issued back at the start of 2017 from New World Facilities East Essex. It was one of three PCNs issued for parking in an allocated residential space at a block of flats with an 'expired' permit. The first and the third PCNs were cancelled due to complaints to the property management company, but they would not cancel the second one. I had the usual Debt Recovery Plus letters I've read about on here and a final letter from Gladstones saying 'watch this space/keep us updated if your address changes'.

I know I need to respond to the LBC, and I have had a crack at writing one with the guidance of templates and other's letters I've read on threads. I have a couple of questions though; I know why the PCN was issued, so should I be asking them to provide me for a reason why they are pursuing this claim as well as asking for photos of the contravention etc? Do I need to point out their failure to comply to the pre-action protocol? Am I right in assuming that the reply form is to inform whether I accept the debt or dispute it? I've included my attempt at the reply to this, I would be really grateful if somebody could give me some feedback if I should remove or add anything. I am still trying to work on putting parts of it into my own words as well.

Thank you in advance.

Link to LBC: http://tinypic.com/m/k2kb45/3

Dear Sir/Madam,

Ref: xxxx

I have received your Letter Before Claim dated Monday 24th September in the post on Friday 28th September.

In your letter, you refer to the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (the Protocol); however, your Letter Before Claim does not comply with paragraph 3 of the Protocol as it does not contain the following information:

1. The manner in which the debts have arisen whether orally, in writing or conduct (3.1(a)(iii) to 3.1(a)(iv)).
2. Provide details of where the Reply Form should be sent (3.1(a)(viii)).
3. Enclose a copy of the Information Sheet and Reply Form (3.1(c)).

Although your letter mentions the use of a Reply Form and Information Sheet through your website, I am not required to do so, nor do I wish to register my personal information on your website. Please find enclosed my request for hard copies; until I have received these documents, I do not consider the 30 day reply period to have begun.

Without prejudice to the above, I require further information from you (please see below) to assess my position. Without this information, I am unable to provide a full response to your client’s allegations. Therefore, please can you provide me with the information below:

• Details of the original charge including documentation, photos and detail any interest and administrative or other charges added.
• Details of the claim – where it is claimed the vehicle was parked, how long for, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated.
• Whether I am being pursued as the driver or the keeper
• Whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
• Whether the claim is for a contractual breach? If so, what is the date of the agreement? Please provide the names of the parties to it and provide me with a copy of the contract.
• Provide me with a copy of the contract between the claimant and the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim (as required by the IPC code of practice section B, clause 1.1 “establishing yourself as the creditor”)
• A plan showing where any signs were displayed
• Details of the signs displayed not limited to e.g. size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)

In accordance with paragraph 5 of the Protocol, until your client has complied with my request for further information I would therefore suggest that any action your client is considering be deferred. Upon receipt of the requested information, I anticipate that a full response will be provided within 30 days (I refer you to paragraph 4.2 of the Protocol).

If, however, your client pursues its claim without supplying the further information as requested above, I reserve the right to draw this letter to the attention of the court and seek an adverse cost order due to non-compliance with the Protocol as well as any other order the court deems appropriate.

I look forward to hearing from you in due course.

Yours faithfully,
otterpanda

Coupon-mad

I know why the PCN was issued, so should I be asking them to provide me for a reason why they are pursuing this claim as well as asking for photos of the contravention etc?

Tell them that your request must be treated as a SAR, and that you've sent a copy to their client's Data Protection Officer (check the PPC's website for the DPO contact, given in a 'privacy/data concerns' page, if they have one)!

Head the communications up:

SUBJECT ACCESS REQUEST AND OBJECTION TO PROCESSING

Say to the PPC that you require ALL photos and ALL letters and ALL data held by the parking firm, including copies of the permit issue letter and proof of the date when any purported new permit was delivered to the flat (was it your flat? if so, show evidence of that as well as evidence of being connected to the VRN, such as your V5). Point out that the flat and the VRN are both personal data that identifies you, and so you require everything sent there, and an explanation of why the decision was made to 'expire and 'replace' perfectly valid permits and when that occurred.

Do I need to point out their failure to comply to the pre-action protocol?

No, I expect they complied.

Am I right in assuming that the reply form is to inform whether I accept the debt or dispute it?

Yes but NO-ONE here fills that in.

We just suggest a letter/email as a response to the LBC, telling the solicitor that you've sent a SAR to their client and as such, you object to processing of your data and it must now be 'restricted' and the litigation put on hold, until a reasonable period (at least 21 days) after the Data Protection Officer has replied to the SAR.

otterpanda

Hi Coupon-mad,

Thank you so much for your reply.

I will admit I'm starting to get a little confused and overwhelmed by this process, so I apologise if I am asking any stupid questions.

To clarify - I should send send a SAR to the PPC requesting all information and documentation relating to the PCN/myself as well as any documentation they have pertaining to the issue of new permits to the block of flats. My reply to Gladstones should be that I've requested this information from NWFEE and until they reply they should put a pause on the 30 day response period? Should there be anything else I am asking for from Gladstones specifically such as if they are pursuing me as driver or registered keeper/photos? Once I have had the response through from the SAR, I am a little unclear as to what happens then - am I essentially either holding my hands up to the claims or refuting them?

I've had a look on the NWFEE website and gotten the information for the SAR. They've said that they would want a photocopy of either my passport or drivers licence as proof of ID; am I allowed to redact information such as DOB? I'm assuming the driving licence with the address on shows my link to the flat.

I rent the flat so the permit 'was sent' to my landlady but she never received it. I already have a copy of the lease as I requested one right at the beginning so I could check if I was in the wrong at all.

I hope you don't mind me asking but I haven't seen any LBC threads being advised to submit a SAR to the PPC directly, would you mind me asking what is different in my situation? Admittedly I haven't read all LBC threads but a good few (I'm not doubting your knowledge and expertise in the slightest, I just want to have the best understanding of the situation).

Thank you in advance again.

Coupon-mad

Should there be anything else I am asking for from Gladstones specifically such as if they are pursuing me as driver or registered keeper/photos?

No. That's the point, all your questions go to the DPO of the company that MUST supply that data. Not to Gs!

Once I have had the response through from the SAR, I am a little unclear as to what happens then - am I essentially either holding my hands up to the claims or refuting them?

There is no 'either'! You will be defending a court claim anyway, no ''holding your hands up'' on this forum! But the info will mean you have seen their hand, seen all evidence, letters & photos except for their landowner authority that they won't divulge till WS & evidence for the hearing.

I hope you don't mind me asking but I haven't seen any LBC threads being advised to submit a SAR to the PPC directly, would you mind me asking what is different in my situation?

No different. #

We've suggested this in several recent BW Legal or Gladstones cases at LBC stage, purely to glean the info you want to see, to defend with knowledge of what they hold.

We know that the solicitors don't provide all the photos/letters so instead of going for the organ grinder, we now go for the monkey for that info, under the DPA/GDPR law.

otterpanda

Hi,

So I have drafted the below letter to the DPO at the PPC. Would you mind casting a glance over it to see if it's suitable? Once this has been posted, I will write to Gladstones to say stop processing until I have a response from NWFEE.

Sorry, I realise I seem to need my hand holding at each step..

Thank you in advance, I really am grateful for your help.

Dear Data Protection Officer

Re: Subject Access Request / Request for Further Information

Name: otterpanda
Vehicle Registration: xxxxxxx
PCN: xxx

Following the receipt of a Letter Before Claim from Gladstones Solicitors, I am writing to request the following data about me that I am entitled to under data protection law and information relating to PCN: 1000xxxxxx, including:

• All correspondence (including letters and emails) relating to the above Parking Charge Notice.
• All correspondence (including letters and emails) relating to me.
• All relevant photos pertaining to this Parking Charge Notice including of signage.

In addition to the above information, please could you provide me with the following information to gain further understanding about the claim:

• An explanation why valid permits were expired and replaced with identically appearing permits.
• Copies of correspondence issuing residents of xxxxx with new parking permits following the above decision.
• Proof of date of issue of new parking permits.
• Are you pursuing me as the Registered Keeper or the Driver of the above vehicle? (please find enclosed a copy of the V5 for proof of ownership).
• Details of any interest and administrative or other charges added to the claim.
• Are you relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012?
• Is the claim is for a contractual breach? If so, what is the date of the agreement? Please provide the names of the parties to it and provide me with a copy of the contract.
• Please can you provide me with a copy of the contract between the claimant and the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim (as required by the IPC code of practice section B, clause 1.1 “establishing yourself as the creditor”)
• A plan showing where any signs were displayed.

Should you need any further information from me, please use the above address for all correspondence. I have enclosed a copy of my driver’s license as proof of identity, however I have redacted out information that I did not think you would require, including photo, signature, driving license number and date of birth. I hope this is sufficient to prove name and address (as above).

I look forward to hearing from you within 30 days.

Yours faithfully
otterpanda

otterpanda

Hi all,

So I sent my SAR off to the PPC and a letter to Gladstones to inform them that I have submitted the SAR and as such I request they cease processing my data for a 25 day period after I receive the data I have requested in order to gain a better understanding of the claim. I also requested that Gstones provide me with copies of documents they intend to use in court.

I've had a reply back to say that they are under no obligation to cease processing my data because they can 'demonstrate compelling legitimate grounds for the processing of your data which override the interests rights and freedoms of you as an individual. The legitimate interest being that we act on behalf of our client for the recovery of monies relating to an unpaid parking charge notice.'

So now the ball seems to be back in my court from a Gstones perspective; they make no reference to the documents I requested (I asked that they provide it to be within 7 days). Should I respond to them to say I wasn't requesting a total cessation of processing, just a pause while the DPO at the PPC can respond to my SAR? Surely they know that I'm not going to blindly respond to the claim without knowing fully what data they hold?

Does anybody have any thoughts on what I should be doing next with this?

Thank you in advance.

beamerguy

Sounds like Gladstones, so incompetent with no desire
to act in a reasonable manner of even follow the
principles of the SRA

They think they have a case, hence their reply

You must make it very clear to them that you are unable
to proceed until you receive the information requested.
You will bring this to the attention of the court

You need to understand the complete incompetence
of Gladstones. They were incompetent then and they
are just as incompetent now

https://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/search?q=gladstones

otterpanda

Hi beamer_guy,

Thanks for the link, there were some interesting reads. I had no idea that Gladstones and the IPC were run/owned by the same people!

I wrote back to Gladstones emphasising that I am unable to respond to the claim without the SAR which actually came through on Monday. I had requested that Gladstones provide me with copies of everything they intend to use in court within 7 days and reminded them of this fact in the letter. I've not had anything through from them as of today.

From the SAR, I've had photos, a letter to leaseholders informing them of the changes of PPC, and an email chain following complaints I made to the management company of the building. I also have a copy of the lease from my landlord.

Where do I stand now in regards to the LBC, do I need to send another letter to Gladstones (and obviously keep copies of these letters) reminding them of my request for data, or at this point should I just accept what I have from the SAR and respond to the claim?

The one thing I don't know thinking about it is if they are pursuing me as the driver or registered keeper.

Coupon-mad

otterpanda wrote: »

The one thing I don't know thinking about it is if they are pursuing me as the driver or registered keeper.

I would say that doesn't matter, given these facts:

...a PCN issued back at the start of 2017 from New World Facilities East Essex. It was one of three PCNs issued for parking in an allocated residential space at a block of flats with an 'expired' permit. The first and the third PCNs were cancelled due to complaints to the property management company, but they would not cancel the second one.

If you were the driver and resident, I'd defend it on that basis when a claim form arrives, using whatever you have in the lease from your landlord that gives him/her and tenants at that address, rights of way, rights to peaceful enjoyment, parking rights or easements, etc.

Go through that lease and search it for those words, and anything that gives the freeholder/managing agent the right to introduce 'regulations'.

Re this horrendous reply from Gs (below), why not complain to the ICO online now, about Gladstones reply alleging that they have a COMPELLING right to not pause data processing while a SAR was awaited. Pretty sure that's not true, considering any claim could very easily be parked for a few weeks to allow a consumer to consider the documents provided in a SAR. That view is also supported by the 'pre-action protocol for Debt claims' that positively requires all parties to communicate and exhaust the avenues for exchange of information, narrowing the issues in dispute, and avoiding the court process if possible which is meant to be a last resort, not an out of control steam roller that Gladstones can't possibly put on hold pending a SAR!

Complain to the ICO online on those terms, make it very clear what the issues are and tell them about the aims of the pre-action protocol for debt claims and that any Solicitor's first duty is to the Court and MUST pay regard to fair court processes as well as proportionate and timely data processing, and the interests of an individual to a SAR:

So I sent my SAR off to the PPC and a letter to Gladstones to inform them that I have submitted the SAR and as such I request they cease processing my data for a 25 day period after I receive the data I have requested in order to gain a better understanding of the claim. I also requested that Gstones provide me with copies of documents they intend to use in court.

I've had a reply back to say that they are under no obligation to cease processing my data because they can 'demonstrate compelling legitimate grounds for the processing of your data which override the interests rights and freedoms of you as an individual. The legitimate interest being that we act on behalf of our client for the recovery of monies relating to an unpaid parking charge notice.'

otterpanda

Hi Coupon-mad


I've submitted the complaint to the ICO.


Should I chase Gladstones for the information I've requested or just respond to the LBC with what I have received from the SAR?


If they've rejected my request technically I'm now outside the 30 days response period. In my response to them I did reiterate that I couldn't reply to the claim until I've had the information requested so I'm not too sure where I stand right now..

Coupon-mad

Respond to them both by email and tell them you have now submitted an ICO complaint and still have not had all the information requested, and as such they must restrict processing your data and put the claim on hold.