THIS is why I hate TFL!

NBLondon

Mr_Singleton wrote: »

A friend has summed up your post perfectly.... “how dare poor people clog up public transport. They should be made to walk. So what if they have to start at 3am should have worked harder at school and got more qualifications. As for for council estates in zone 1 what a disgrace”

The trade off won’t be between two jobs but no job and a life on benefits paid for through your taxes.

Clearly your friend has the same "ranting over reading" problem you do...

EachPenny

Mr_Singleton wrote: »

....so TFL have no doubt worked out that it is to there advantage to UNNECESSARYLY split the journey so they can double the fare.

With so many tourist and out of towners who don’t know any better TFL is blatantly conning people. I’ve noticed this with other fares which seem to offer routes/timing to maximise bus journeys outside the hopper fare range.

I was distantly involved in the early development work of the system which became Journey Planner. This happened before TfL came into being. TfL's development work happened under Ken Livingstone, not someone widely known for wanting to rip people off on public transport fares. :whistle:

I can assure you with some certainty that where Journey Planner comes up with something odd like this, the reason is a failure in the logic, or a quirk in the public transport system, rather than TfL seeking to make extra money out of your friends.

NBLondon wrote: »

Which and why - that's a mystery...

exile_geordie has more or less covered it already (https://www.oyster-rail.org.uk is an excellent source of information).

In addition to the time limit issue, there are some routes where the zone 1 avoiding alternative just doesn't make sense, and also some which TfL don't want to encourage people to use because the zone 1 avoiding alternative already suffers from congestion/overcrowding and they don't want to add to that. (the higher zone 1 fares reflect the congestion and overcrowding in zone 1)

NBLondon wrote: »

Yep - it defaults to quickest route including changes. But that's based on the published timetables and practical experience tells regular users that it won't necessarily be faster if traffic or something else makes one step a few minutes late or that it may be better to take a route which is 5 mins slower but less crowded. You can juggle the settings for things like avoid stairs or minimise changes but I reckon many/most users just accept the default and don't check.

+1 for tweaking the settings.

One of the underlying issues in the system is the difference in approach between strictly timetabled services (e.g. National Rail) and those which run to a nominal timetable, but in practice operate to a frequency of 'x' buses/trains per hour. So for example a bus route might have six buses per hour (bph). There will be a nominal timetable which might say a particular stop will be served at 03, 13, 23, 33, 43, 53 minutes past the hour, but anyone using bus services in London will know these times are rarely adhered to.

If journey planner was calculating a rail + bus journey, the arrival time at the station could be say 12 noon. Journey planner then needs to add an amount of time to allow for walking from the platform to the bus stop and has to make assumptions about the rate people walk. (here the tweaks are important!). One passenger might be quick enough to make it to the bus stop for the 12:03 bus, but another might have to wait for the 12:13 - that's assuming the buses run to time. That 10 minutes could make a big difference to the overall journey time (and cause some people to get rather hot under the collar about fare overcharging :whistle:).

The alternative approach is to ignore the timetable and consider only the bus freqency to calculate the average wait time. I.e. if a route operates at 6bph the average wait time will be 5 minutes. (some people will wait 0 mins, some 10 mins). Journey planner can then work on the basis that the train arrives at 12 noon, it takes 'x' minutes to walk to the bus stop, the average wait time is 5 minutes, plus the on-bus journey time, will give the arrival time at the destination stop.

Hopefully from this example it can be seen that the result from journey planner will depend on whether a particular bus route is treated as timetabled, or if the average wait calculation is applied. In the early days it was route frequency (bph) which determined which was used, but I understand that has now been refined so different sections of a bus route can be treated differently according to real-life experience. Someone out there will know for sure.

But the most important thing to remember, and why the OP can calm down a little, is that the predicted journey time on a complex route involving one or more change of bus isn't necessarily the quickest the journey can be completed in - even if you ask Journey Planner to calculate the quickest route.

The predicted time usually represents the average you can expect that journey to take, you might be lucky and complete it quicker, but to manage customer expectations (and help people avoid being late) the system defaults to giving quite generous interchange allowances, as well as assuming people walk at snail-pace.

Journey planner might predict a journey time of 70 minutes, but a lot of people will complete it in under (say) 60. If you appreciate the complexity of what is going on behind the scenes in predicting a journey time, you'll probably understand that TfL are not gaming the system to make people pay higher fares.

Mr_Singleton

EachPenny, interesting but laughable....

Is the Ken Livingston you refer to the same one that had to do a deal for cheap oil for London buses with a third world country to enable those on benefits in one of the wealthiest cities in the world to get a cheaper bus ticket? Says it all really.

I completely agree with you it makes absolutely no sense to TFL’s bank balance to allow people to avoid zone 1. I went from Camden Town to Hampton Court. I wasn’t in a rush so went on the overland to Wilsden Junction to Clapham Juction then to Hampton Court. This avoided the exit only Camden Town tube station ie an extra bus fare cost to Mornington Crescent a rammed journey down to Waterloo and a change to National rail at one of Londons busiest stations. Obviously TFL can’t be having that so yet again TFL is lining it’s pockets at the customers expense. It’s own rules don’t suit it so it moves the goal posts.... another benefit of its abusive monopoly.

With my original point you fundamentally miss the point. Traffic conjestion makes no difference. It takes 2 buses. The first is a 4 stop 10? minute journey. The second takes the user direct to there destination by the quickest possible route. Why is there any reason to change other than TFL gaming the system to add an additional and UNNECESSARY journey to profitabily double the cost?

Mr_Singleton

Andy_L wrote: »

...... or being bussed in en-masse by minibus driving gang-masters rather than individually catching the tube from Epping, Upminster, Uxbridge or Ruislip.

You make my point wonderfully.

A gang master gets a 14 seat minibus on a PCP deal of £300/month. S/He drives the 13 miles from zone 6 to say Tottenham Court Road and back 5 days a week for a month.

The total cost is what? inc. petrol insurance etc say £500/month.

TFL will charge nearly £3500/month for those journeys on public transport. Google says driving that route is 9 minutes slower than taking public transport.

It’s why tube and bus journeys are falling and the number of prosecutions for dangerously polluted air quality in London are becoming a regular occurrence.

NBLondon

Mr_Singleton wrote: »

The total cost is what? inc. petrol insurance etc say £500/month.

Only if they are wearing false plates to dodge the congestion charge of £11.50 per day x 20 working days = £230 per month. But then again - gangmasters are well-known for obeying all laws aren't they?

Mr_Singleton

NBLondon wrote: »

Only if they are wearing false plates to dodge the congestion charge of £11.50 per day x 20 working days = £230 per month. But then again - gangmasters are well-known for obeying all laws aren't they?

Ok you’d now ONLY be saving £750 a week so obviously public transport is the better option.... NOT!

martindow

Mr_Singleton wrote: »

Google says driving that route is 9 minutes slower than taking public transport.

I imagine that will depend on the time of day your gangmaster is driving. At busy times the difference could well be a lot greater.


But never mind Mr_S's crusade will continue regardless!

Andy_L

Mr_Singleton wrote: »

You make my point wonderfully.

A gang master gets a 14 seat minibus on a PCP deal of £300/month. S/He drives the 13 miles from zone 6 to say Tottenham Court Road and back 5 days a week for a month.

The total cost is what? inc. petrol insurance etc say £500/month.

TFL will charge nearly £3500/month for those journeys on public transport. Google says driving that route is 9 minutes slower than taking public transport.

It’s why tube and bus journeys are falling and the number of prosecutions for dangerously polluted air quality in London are becoming a regular occurrence.

I think that's a false equivalence. Public transport has never been, and is never going to be able to be, economical for transporting a dozen people who need to travel from A to B at the same time.

Equally those people don't need to live in a (presumably) more expensive area that has commuter links but can live somewhere cheaper in Z6 or even further out.

Mr_Singleton

Andy_L wrote: »

I think that's a false equivalence. Public transport has never been, and is never going to be able to be, economical for transporting a dozen people who need to travel from A to B at the same time.

Equally those people don't need to live in a (presumably) more expensive area that has commuter links but can live somewhere cheaper in Z6 or even further out.

To a point that’s a fair point but do the same calculation in any other ‘world city’ and the gap is pretty small.

Only in London are you required to move because of punitive public transport costs. Public transport should be seen as a public good NOT a cash cow.

Mr_Singleton

martindow wrote: »

But never mind Mr_S's crusade will continue regardless!

O.K here’s YET ANOUTHER one for you.....

You go to the cinema 30 seconds after the film starts the projector breaks down. Would you expect a refund if the rescheduled performance wasn’t convenient??

You tap your oystercard in, 30 seconds later an announcement is made that due to a signal failure/broken train all services from the station are suspended.

Oddly any other company in the U.K would be required to give a full refund or at the very least not charge you...... TFL with its abusive monopoly just laughs and happily relieves you of between £1.50 and £15.60.

Tell me, how can that be fair?