ParkingEye NHS staff county court claim

tomjones88

Hi there!

Firstly I would like to thank you for all for the wealth of information in this forum, I've learned a great deal over the past few hours. It's only a shame that we've found you this late in the day - we submitted a half-baked defence a few weeks ago and we are now at the mediation stage, from what I've read here we will next be required to submit a witness statement.

So let me set the story. My girlfriend is a nurse that works for the NHS. The car park at the hospital has both staff and visitor sections. About a year and a half ago Parking Eye were given control of the car park where they installed ANPR cameras. Staff were asked to provide their number plates so they do not receive 'invoices', and visitors are to enter their registration number into a screen on reception where they get two hours parking. Straight away my girlfriend started receiving letters from Parking Eye. I think this happened about 5 times and each time she wrote back explaining that she is a member of staff, her registration number is on the system (as confirmed by her manager and the receptionist at the hospital) and that she parked in the designated Staff car park. The fines were all subsequently cancelled (some only at the appeal stage after having to argue the facts with them).

Now in February this year, she received yet another letter regarding a new fine. This time they were not having any of it, sticking by their guns and insisting the image they have shows my girlfriend entering the Visitor only section, which she should not be in. My girlfriend is adamant that she's never entered the visitor section, staff at the hospital are fully aware which sections they are allowed to park in. Not only that, it wouldn't make much sense to park in the visitor section because they are further away than the staff spaces, and when my girlfriend starts work at 7am there are *always* free staff spaces, so she would have no need to ever do so.

She tried to appeal, going as far as getting a NHS headed letter from her manager explaining that she is a member of staff and would never have a reason to park in vistors, as I have explained above. Guess what? Appeal denied! They are saying the image clearly shows her entering the visitor only car park.

Fast forward to July my girlfriend receives a County Court letter. Parking Eye are taking her to court. She filed a single paragraph defence, pretty much saying that she's a member of staff, her registration number is on their system, she would never need to park in the visitor section, she's been through this a number of times, and that the picture they have only shows her entering and leaving the whole car park, not parking specifically in the visitor section.

Parking Eye responded to the defence, again saying that the picture shows her entering the *visitor* section, plus a load of condescending crap about how they will not respond to any further correspondence unless it's agreed by the court.

Now by this stage, I've been to the car park and identified the ANPR cameras. There are four in total. One on the 'communal' entrance that face cars entering the whole car park head on, so take pictures of the front of the car when entering and the rear of the car when exiting. The other three cameras that are facing visitor only sections, all could only take pictures of a car from the rear when entering those sections, and of the front of the car when exiting them.

So in fact, we can prove that the pictures they have (one at about 6:50am of the front of the car, the second at around 19:32 of the rear of the car) physically could not be of her entering the visitor only section, they could only have been taken at the communal entrance where both staff and visitors use. Otherwise, they would be in the opposite order.

Now it's my understanding that we have the following options. Firstly, we could send a reply to Parking Eye with a map and pictures explaining that the evidence they have in fact doesn't prove anything other than she was at work, and hope they just withdraw the claim. That's if they even read the evidence. Secondly, we decline mediation and go to court. Thirdly, we accept mediation and try and articulate what I've explained to the mediators and how the ordering of the photos only show her being at work, not in any specific car parks. Is this even a valid argument at this stage?

My girlfriend is in absolute state about this now crying her eyes out thinking that she's going to court. I've even considered just paying the fine to make it all go away, regardless of how morally wrong this whole thing is.

So my question is, what do you think the best course of action is now? If we choose the mediation option, will we be able to present what we've realised about the cameras although we didn't mention that in the original defence? I'm aware that we can ask to alter the defence at the cost of £225, in which case we might as well just pay the fine. The second question is, am I able to represent my girlfriend in court? There's no way that she would hold it together in court or even in a room with a mediator, so again - easier to just pay the original fine.

I'm not going to get into how much this infuriates me, a nurse that looks after patients working 12+ hour shifts being harassed by a greedy company even though she's clearly done nothing wrong. I've considered hiring a solicitor but again, it seems the cost of doing so would exceed the fine.

My final question is do we have a case for harassment here? Considering the amount of times this has happened, how many times she's told them she's a member of staff and how much distress this is causing now it's gone to court. What's stopping them doing this again and again? Luckily we've noticed the issue with the photos, that's our only argument! Otherwise it would just be my girlfriend's word against theirs, and who knows what the outcome would be?

I thank you for your advice in advance and thank you for reading what's turned into a bit of an essay!

Regards,

C

Fruitcake

Mediation is a waste of time. You want to pay nowt, and they want £100 plus, and ne'er the twain shall meet. I wouldn't bother with it.

Surely the hospital management that employed the scammers can tell Parking Lie to cancel this?

There is a guide to court in post 2 of the NEWBIES written by a poster called bargepole, so get stuck into that. Hopefully some of the more court savvy regulars should be along soon to help you out.

Get your MP involved. This is an unregulated scam and our MPs have said so in open parliament.

tomjones88

Thanks for the quick response. There's actually a team within the NHS that deal with Parking Eye. Guess what? You can never get hold of them, they don't return messages and when you do get to speak to someone they are particularly unhelpful! I believe their response was "we can't do anything if it goes to court, you may want to seek legal advice".

The whole system from start to finish seems as though it's designed to make people crumble and just pay up, although they haven't done anything wrong. It's so infuriating to witness someone going through this

beamerguy

tomjones88 wrote: »

Thanks for the quick response. There's actually a team within the NHS that deal with Parking Eye. Guess what? You can never get hold of them, they don't return messages and when you do get to speak to someone they are particularly unhelpful! I believe their response was "we can't do anything if it goes to court, you may want to seek legal advice".

The whole system from start to finish seems as though it's designed to make people crumble and just pay up, although they haven't done anything wrong. It's so infuriating to witness someone going through this

Everything you say is correct. One must think that
these teams in the NHS are getting a rake off from PE

There can be no other reason for the NHS to allow such
an attack on their staff ?????

Parking Eye are simply animals and money is their game

There is a new bill going through about these cowboys
so why not write to Sir Greg Knight MP asking why
government allows parking scammers like PE, cowboys
like PE to attack the most important people in the UK ..
NHS STAFF

SIR GREG

https://www.parliament.uk/biographies/commons/sir-greg-knight/1200

Umkomaas

I believe their response was "we can't do anything if it goes to court, you may want to seek legal advice".

Tell them that you have taken that advice - and you will be calling a senior manager as a witness for cross-examination when it gets to court. Require them to provide the name and position of the senior manager and the dates of his/her non-availability (annual leave) over the next 6 months so the court can arrange a date when he/she can be called for questioning.

A bit of bluff - but no more than their BS to date.

tomjones88

I have just been talking to my girlfriend who has not long come back from work, she's been discussing this with her colleagues and apparently it's happened to a load of other staff members.. being blamed for parking in the visitors section when they definitely haven't. But always cancelled before a county court letter.

There's one example of an Indian lady who has become so intimidated by PE's refusal to back down that she's just been paying the fines. Obviously intimidated by the concept of a court hearing and unable to understand the legalise. She's paid them over £300 currently. I'm absolutely disgusted and so shocked that something like this can happen.

My girlfriend has found out the physical location of this 'team' that are supposed to oversee Parking Eye queries. So rather than them dodging phone calls we are going to turn up there Monday morning and say something along the lines of what Umkomaas has kindly suggested. I really don't understand why they say they can't do anything once it's gone to court - surely Parking Eye can withdraw whenever they want. But what it seems like on the face of this is that the NHS know this is going on, but choosing to step back and allow their staff to go through this hell.

In the meantime I've filled the form in declining the option of mediation, as I'm not expecting the 'NHS Parking Eye team' to do anything about it. I have begun to prepare a map of the car park highlighting the visitor and staff areas and explaining how the picture doesn't prove anything, hopefully I'll be able to present this to the court and they will agree that this whole case is ludicrous.

Also as kindly recommended by beamerguy I will be raising this with an MP and possibly even local newspapers once this fiasco is done and dusted.

In the meantime if anyone can provide any guidance as to if we would be able to pursue a harassment case or something along those lines, considering the amount of times it's happened to my girlfriend and has happened to other staff members? They're clearly trying to bully innocent NHS staff members into paying fines, just for turning up to work.

Umkomaas

That sounds like a plan, but get your local MP involved now and get him/her to also support the Sir Greg Knight Private Member's Bill currently going through its Parliamentary stages. Watch the debate in Parliament (linked below).

http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

Are you aware of the General Priniples that NHS Trusts are required to follow? Read this, get it in your head, then press hard when you see the NHS reps next week!

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles

Key paragraphs:

Contracted-out car parking

NHS organisations are responsible for the actions of private contractors who run car parks on their behalf.

NHS organisations should act against rogue contractors in line with the relevant codes of practice where applicable.

Contracts should not be let on any basis that incentivises additional charges, eg ‘income from parking charge notices only’.

Let them try and talk their way out of those. Don't let them off the hook!

Threaten them with legal action on the basis of these clauses issued by the Department of Health and Social Care, some 4 years ago. Ask them why, after all this time, they have singularly failed to have implemented clear Government Guidance.

Ralph-y

please keep listening to the good advice ....



just some more quotes for you after reading watching the above ....




https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

and slightly longer, the committee stage

https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/d5550515-cce9-4185-83ec-754dadb7524a

''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.

and some quotes from the committe stage

"The other area is hospital parking, and I want to single out one company for some pretty shady practices. That is ParkingEye"
" is very clear to me that there is collusion between parking companies and solicitors’ firms—so-called roboclaims companies. "
"They are often set up adjacently and involve the same directors and personnel. Incidentally, the same personnel get involved in the so-called appeals bodies."
"Essentially, it is a money-making enterprise that takes advantage of motorists up and down the country. They operate in a very business-like fashion, which is why I call them roboclaims companies."
"The companies are jamming up parts of our legal system."
“I now pretty much know exactly how the parking companies and in particular the IPC have been running this scam for the past 5 years. Basically both of the appeals processes are a complete and utter sham, (and part of that sham is Gladstones Solicitors itself)”
"The appeals process at Excel/VCS is run by a team of minimum wage office workers with no legal knowledge or experience whatsoever,"
" It is claimed by the head of the appeals service (retired Judge Bryn Holloway) that this is a completely independent fair process, it is not”
"The letter mentions two individuals—Will Hurley and Bryn Holloway—and concludes this is a typical example of the clear collusion between the IPC, their members and the IAS"
"what we can do about roboclaims companies and solicitors firms that profit, often in shady ways"
" the very large amounts of money that can be involved in such scams—a company called Smart Parking was involved in one such scam on my patch"
"tightening up the rules regarding the unfair use of automatic number plate recognition" "BW Legal, regularly issues 10,000 county court judgments a month, and is known to have issued 28,000 in one month"
"They are jamming up our court system, and are often totally unjustified."
" because the lifeblood of trying to extort money from people is having access to their details."

All from Parking (Code of Practice) Bill (First sitting) Hansard






so try and get your MP on board ...


Ralph:cool:

tomjones88

Just watched through the initial debate, it just so happens that Stephen Doughty is my local MP!

I'm going to give him a call Monday and write to Sir Greg. My gf is going to ask around more in work so we can get a list of staff members this has happened to.

Thanks all for your advice and info. The NHS parking principles is perfect to go armed with on Monday. I will keep you updated!

Coupon-mad

So in fact, we can prove that the pictures they have (one at about 6:50am of the front of the car, the second at around 19:32 of the rear of the car) physically could not be of her entering the visitor only section, they could only have been taken at the communal entrance where both staff and visitors use. Otherwise, they would be in the opposite order.

Like this case then:

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/03/parkingeye-lose-in-court-accuse-drivers.html

Get her to send PE a SAR right now asking for the system list of all the ANPR captures of her car that day, by all cameras on site, just like the victim obtained in that case. It sussed the scam.

SAR can be emailed:

enforcement@parkingeye.co.uk

Put URGENT SUBJECT ACCESS REQUEST into the subject line and she should attach a copy of the court claim as proof of who she is.

Fruitcake

tomjones88 wrote: »

I have just been talking to my girlfriend who has not long come back from work, she's been discussing this with her colleagues and apparently it's happened to a load of other staff members.. being blamed for parking in the visitors section when they definitely haven't. But always cancelled before a county court letter.

There's one example of an Indian lady who has become so intimidated by PE's refusal to back down that she's just been paying the fines. Obviously intimidated by the concept of a court hearing and unable to understand the legalise. She's paid them over £300 currently. I'm absolutely disgusted and so shocked that something like this can happen.

My girlfriend has found out the physical location of this 'team' that are supposed to oversee Parking Eye queries. So rather than them dodging phone calls we are going to turn up there Monday morning and say something along the lines of what Umkomaas has kindly suggested. I really don't understand why they say they can't do anything once it's gone to court - surely Parking Eye can withdraw whenever they want. But what it seems like on the face of this is that the NHS know this is going on, but choosing to step back and allow their staff to go through this hell.

In the meantime I've filled the form in declining the option of mediation, as I'm not expecting the 'NHS Parking Eye team' to do anything about it. I have begun to prepare a map of the car park highlighting the visitor and staff areas and explaining how the picture doesn't prove anything, hopefully I'll be able to present this to the court and they will agree that this whole case is ludicrous.

Also as kindly recommended by beamerguy I will be raising this with an MP and possibly even local newspapers once this fiasco is done and dusted.

In the meantime if anyone can provide any guidance as to if we would be able to pursue a harassment case or something along those lines, considering the amount of times it's happened to my girlfriend and has happened to other staff members? They're clearly trying to bully innocent NHS staff members into paying fines, just for turning up to work.

Unrelated to the NHS, but I used to be a Unite Union Rep. If you or your girlfriend are union members you should get your rep involved now.

I helped a couple of my members with parking issues when they got tickets on company business, which is how I originally came across this site and decided to stay to try and help others.
On an unrelated but nevertheless an employment issue, I told my boss I was unavailable for work as I had a problem that needed resolving, and refused point blank to work until it was resolved.

I don't know how comitted your girlfriend is, but with a union rep by her side stating she has an employment problem that needs resolving it may be difficult for her superior to refuse her request for time to pursue this matter caused by the hospital, especially if she says it is affecting her mental state and thus her ability to do her job.
It IS an employment problem.