Claim received, AOS sent today, now stressing

ParkingStressie

I've been reading through all the stickies, links etc like a good newbie. I'm seeing loads of great examples of defence which all seem to have a little extra, or mitigation, that I don't have. Wondering if anyone can link me to more run of the mill defences?

- Date = October '17. I was working to out-of-date advice and had just been recycling all letters apart from 3 that I forgot about (DPR then Zenith x 2). So I don't have any evidence/photographs/anything else, and I don't remember if it was just ANPR in/out or if there are photos of the car parked. From the advice elsewhere it looks like I've missed the opportunity to request photographs or other evidence from the PPC. Is that right?

- Ditto the recycling means I also didn't enter into any correspondence with the landowner/retailer.

- It's an overstay (although the claim form doesn't say that, just a 'contravention', though DC letters do say 'parking for longer than the maximum period' but not what that period is) in a retail car park that the driver believed to be a 2hr limit (used many times before) but at some point had been reduced to 1.5/1hr and the driver hadn't noticed. It's free, so no ticket required.

- As it's nearly a year later, is it worth getting photographs of the (really quite high up) signage? It may have changed in the interim.

I'll admit to being a bit panicked about this because when I started the AOS I thought the whole thing would be dealt with on paper. I'm not sure I'm up to a hearing. I'm under huge amount of pressure elsewhere and while I've had a lot of practice building arguments on paper, I'm most effective when I have time to play around with the language. When on the spot and in person I fear I don't think quickly/clearly enough (I'm neurodiverse and suffer with anxiety because of it) and will either find no useful words at all or all of the wrong ones :embarasse

Umkomaas

Some of the example defences are extremely long and attempt to cover almost any eventuality the claimant might raise.

But legally qualified IamEmanresu advises that defences should concentrate on the main issues raised in the Particulars of Claim and not attempt what he terms a 'spray and pray' Defence.

Further, also legally qualified and regular, successful Lay Representative in private parking cases Bargepole has very recently posted a 'model' defence which is much shorter than some of the other examples on the forum. Here is a link to it.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=74674865&postcount=24

when I started the AOS I thought the whole thing would be dealt with on paper. I'm not sure I'm up to a hearing.

You can ask for your case to be 'heard on the papers' and IamEmanresu often says this is less risky than lots of us imagine, most recommending facing the PPC in court - you pays your money .......

You haven't told us which parking company. Often we can give you an idea as to how this might progress in due course. Which PPC please?

ParkingStressie

Thanks for the link Umkomas, I'm heading for work so will check it out asap, but PPC is Vehicle Control Services Ltd (VCS) and the claim form is in their name, signed Simon Renshaw-Smith. I've searched for the company on the forum and there aren't loads.

Also, in case it's of use, this is the wording of the particulars of claim:

The claimant's claim is for the sum of 160 being monies due from the Defendant to the Claimant in respect of a Charge Notice (CN) for a contravention on XX/10/17 at [name of site]. The CN relates to a [details of vehicle including VRN]. The terms of the CN allowed the Defendant 28 days from the Issue Date to pay the CN, but the Defendant failed to do so. Despite demand having been made the Defendant has failed to settle their outstanding liability.
The Claimant seeks the recovery of the CN and interest under section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% at the same rate up to the date of Judgement or earlier payment.

This seems like they're taking more care with wording than others detailed on the forum.

nosferatu1001

What? There are a TON of VCS claims on here!

ParkingStressie

Nosferatu on a quick scan (all I had time for this morning) I couldn't see a directly comparable one, only ones with other mitigation or significantly different defence or circumstances, but I'll look again, thanks.

nosferatu1001

Nope, youre wrong

EVERY defence has - signage, authority, no keeper liability (unless the driver has been identified)

SO you dont do a quick scan. You do wha tyou are told, in teh newbies thread, which is to NOT look for identical circumstances, but to UNDERSTAND that this is contract law - simple contract law - and therefore the elements of a contract are fundamental to EVERY case. You then have POFA on top.

Coupon-mad

ParkingStressie wrote: »

Nosferatu on a quick scan (all I had time for this morning) I couldn't see a directly comparable one, only ones with other mitigation or significantly different defence or circumstances, but I'll look again, thanks.

Really?

Generally, all the example defences hinge on the same tried & tested things, and your case is no different from all other VCS and Excel ANPR defences you read.

a retail car park that the driver believed to be a 2hr limit (used many times before) but at some point had been reduced to 1.5/1hr and the driver hadn't noticed.

And that's the start of a defence, and you've been shown an example written by bargepole, for what else to write and how to set it out.

But seeing as LOADS of defences are about an overstay in a retail park why not read some of them?

ParkingStressie

Thanks, while I appreciate it's frustrating that people ask questions you feel have been answered elsewhere, I've just started a thread (as instructed at the top of the newbies post), and read the posts linked to. I've searched for other retail overstays and I'm not looking for identical circumstances as I understand that's not required. I'm not asking to be spoon-fed, but in the time I've had (I rarely get more than 10 minutes uninterrupted at a time to try to do this) I've so far found overstay threads that have other mitigating circumstances such as car breakdown, or much less adequate signage than at the claimant's site.

I raised the defence question because I honestly don't know if the driver has one if they just didn't read the signs/remember to check the length of stay. While it may feel hugely unreasonable to attempt charge someone a lot of ££ for parking in a near-empty car park while legitimately visiting a business attached to it, as I understand it it's not illegal. I'm also not convinced the signage is inadequate but obviously I'll be going back to check and photograph. Some of them are very high up and it was dark.

I'm feeling pessimistic about the defence because others I've read seem much clearer (crap/no signs; were actually in a queue trying to get out etc etc...)

As I have no evidence from the claimant, I've googled SAR (which incidentally brings up an awful lot of not-data related stuff first so if you have no idea what it means you're a bit stuffed) and I've found a template. I'll post my draft email if anyone would be willing to check I'm asking for everything relevant. I'm presuming it's date and time-stamped images, copies of any letters, NTK (which I don't remember getting but as I recycled everything I can't honestly say I didn't).

And yes I've searched for example SARs on here and I haven't found one yet, just posts saying that one needs to be sent. But will keep looking.

Thanks again.

ParkingStressie

OK, found the advanced search now. Suddenly everything is easier *eyeroll* I get a bit hyper and rush at stuff.

System

but at some point had been reduced to 1.5/1hr and the driver hadn't noticed. It's free, so no ticket required.

As C-M has pointed out, you knew it was a controlled space and (we assume) you left within the 2 hours that you understood to be the limit. If so they key point is whether it was made clear about the changes and when those changes occurred. You might want to ask the Retail Park when the new restriction was introduced as it could be relevant.

It is certainly covered by the Code of Practice to which the PPC belongs.

Don't miss the court deadlines for the defence though.

I thought the whole thing would be dealt with on paper. I'm not sure I'm up to a hearing.

It will all be by paper for the next 6 months (as that is the time it takes). If it does go to a hearing, you can opt for a paper hearing by giving 7 days notice. So that decision need not be taken for 5 months and 3 weeks.

Umkomaas

I'm also not convinced the signage is inadequate but obviously I'll be going back to check and photograph. Some of them are very high up and it was dark.

Go back, if possible, in the hours of darkness and take photos of the signage without using flash to show how easy it would have been to completely miss it. Show how high up the poles the signs were.

Then (with flash on) get some photos of the detail shown on the signs, as that forms the purported contract between the parking company and the driver.

Signage (lack of it/badly drafted/prohibiting/poorly illuminated) can often be pivotal.

We've had recent cases where VCS are pursuing claims against motorists who parked in their sister company, Excel's, car park, where Excel signage was displayed. Just check 'your' signage when you get there.

In terms of your SAR. Here is a thread which opened at the time the GDPR was introduced, where draft SARs have emerged that are more parking-related than the more general ones you'll find via Google.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5849784/june-2018-start-of-the-new-ppc-and-dvla-fightback-gdpr-related