We'd like to remind Forumites to please avoid political debate on the Forum... Read More »
IMPORTANT: Please make sure your posts do not contain any personally identifiable information (both your own and that of others). When uploading images, please take care that you have redacted all personal information including number plates, reference numbers and QR codes (which may reveal vehicle information when scanned).
Parking & Property Management Ltd – Should I pay the fine I have received?
RTel10
Posts: 6 Forumite
I received a parking ticket on the 02/07/18 at 22:26.
I am the legal owner of the car parking bay, and usually have the permit stuck to the inside of my window screen, however because of a recent death in my family I hired a bigger vehicle to drive my family to the funeral so I took the permit out and put it in the hired vehicle whilst it was in my possession. Once I started using my own vehicle again, I forgot to apply the permit back to my window screen consequently I received the above mentioned fine.
I contacted Vinny Kapoor vinny@pandpmanagement.co.uk whom is the sales director at Parking & Property Management Ltd to ask if he could waiver the penalty charge on this occasion considering that I have always adhered to the permit requirement up until this instance and given the circumstances of why I had to use a hire vehicle I though he may be sympathetic of my situation, yet he declined! Vinny Kapoor then provided me with a link to complete an official appeal of which I completed, informing Parking & Property Management Ltd of the following:
Unfortunately I had a death in my family and have been travelling back and forth from my family home. I have been changing cars with another family who needed to use my car, so had to keep taking my permit out from one car to another.
Normally I’m on top of this, and it’s the first instance that this has happened because I have not been thinking clearly as you may understand.
Mackenzie Homes have been understanding and feel also that this time round considering the circumstances that the fine should be waivered.
In addition to the above I have not signed a contract agreeing to opt in to having to display a parking permit.
I feel for that it is unfair to have to pay a fine for parking in my own private parking space, of which I legally own. Furthermore, in the past I have provided the Mackenzie Homes aftersales team with my registration, clearly this was pointless as your employees obviously didn’t check your records before issuing the ticket.
Moving forward Mr Vinny Kapoor has agreed to no longer monitor my parking bay, commencing the 15th of August 2018.
Considering the above please can you waiver the charge.
In addition to my formal appeal I have now opted out of the parking permit requirement for my bay in particular and Parking & Property Management Ltd confirmed they are no longer monitoring my parking bay.
My appeal has now been declined and they have said if I wish to appeal it further I need to contact Independent Appeals Service, which is a government approved 2nd tier appeal service. After reading reviews online, I’ve read that many people say not to bother appealing it and that nothing will happen. I did however read one review in which the person was taken to court and lost, therefore had to pay the court fees and a ballooned penalty charge.
Please see below Parking & Property Management Ltd response to my appeal:
Date of PCN issued: 02/08/2018
Date of Appeal: 07/08/2018
Date of Appeal Response: 17/08/2018
Thank you for your correspondence regarding the above Parking Charge Notice (PCN).
We have considered your appeal carefully and take note of the points you have raised in mitigation;
However, we have decided that your appeal has been rejected on the following grounds.
The signage at the site is clearly visible and the information on the signage informs the driver of the parking conditions at the location. Signage is prominent throughout the parking area. Signage location, size, content and font has been audited by the Independent Parking Committee.
It is the driver’s responsibility to check for signage, check the legality and obtain any authorisation for parking before leaving their vehicle.
The fact you are in possession of a permit is not in dispute, however, as per the signage, retrospective evidence of authority to park is not accepted. The parking scheme is in place due to historical parking issues at the development. The scheme offers security and exclusivity to resident bays by combating parking is-sues.
For the basis of treating all residents fairly and equally, all vehicles parking otherwise than in accordance with the conditions must be dealt with the same way, otherwise the parking control provides no protection to the residents.
If the permit is not totally visible on the said occasion whether intentional or not, we feel the driver must take responsibility for this. We also feel that it falls into the category of not parking in accordance with the conditions, by not clearly displaying a valid permit. Signage states permits must be fully displayed in the front windscreen. Had the permit been fully and clearly displayed in the windscreen there would have been no cause to issue the PCN.
Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the permit wasn’t displayed and therefore, the operative was unable to ascertain the authority to park.
We do not record vehicle registration numbers and have never advised that specific vehicles will be recorded and exempt from displaying a permit. The area is a permit area and as such the permit advertises the entitlement to park.
In terms of your right to park on site, this is not in dispute. You have, however, been issued with a letter with a permit attached. The letter provides an opt out clause which, to our knowledge, has not been actioned. Therefore, you have accepted the terms of the signage and the conditions highlighted on the reverse of the permit issued to my address.
By ordinarily accepting and displaying the permit on a regular basis, at no point have you indicated that you were not willing to enter into a contractual undertaking with regard to the terms and conditions of use of the permit.
Whilst we empathise with your situation, we cannot allow parking without displaying a valid permit, what-ever the circumstances. By not enforcing the said issue the same situation will likely happen more often.
The reasons you have put forward for parking in a clearly regulated parking area do not justify parking otherwise than in accordance with the restrictions. You will appreciate that everyone has what they regard as reasonable grounds for parking. The location is private land and as such there is a need to ensure that only vehicles conforming to the advertised restrictions can park on site.
YOUR OPTIONS NOW ARE:
1. Pay the Parking Charge Notice. If you have made your appeal within 14 days of the issue date of the PCN, you now have a further 14 days from the date of this communication to pay the reduced rate of £60.00 per PCN. If you have appealed more than 14 days after the date of the issue of the
PCN, the full amount of £100 per PCN will be outstanding.
• You can pay by visiting the website
• By phone, calling 0207 100 2929. Please have your debit/credit card details and the information in this letter to hand.
• By post, sending a cheque or postal order made payable to Parking and Property Management Ltd to the address at the bottom of this letter.
2. If you believe this decision is incorrect, you are entitled to appeal to the Independent Appeals
Service (IAS). The Independent Appeals Service provides an Alternative Dispute Resolution scheme for disputes of this type. As you have complied with our internal appeals procedure you may use, and we will engage with, the IAS standard Appeals Service providing you lodge an appeal within 21 days of this rejection. To appeal, the IAS will need your parking charge number, your vehicle registration and the date the charge was originally issued. For further information, please visit
If you decide to use the Independent Appeals Service (IAS), the offer of a discount for early payment will be withdrawn and the full parking charge of £100 per PCN will apply if your appeal is dismissed.
Please note that the Independent Adjudicator is unable to cancel a charge on grounds of mitigation and the decision will be based on facts and evidence only.
N.B. If you appeal to the IAS and then subsequently PAY THE CHARGE prior to that appeal being determined, OR alternatively PAY THE CHARGE then attempt to appeal, the appeal will be CANCELLED and you will not be given a further opportunity to contest the charge.
Please allow 24 hours before appealing to the IAS to ensure they have received all relevant information regarding the status of your appeal to us.
3. If you chose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our debt recovery procedures and may proceed with Court action against you.
Yours sincerely
Parking & Property Management Ltd.
I would greatly appreciate any advice on how I should proceed.
Thank you in advance.
RT
I am the legal owner of the car parking bay, and usually have the permit stuck to the inside of my window screen, however because of a recent death in my family I hired a bigger vehicle to drive my family to the funeral so I took the permit out and put it in the hired vehicle whilst it was in my possession. Once I started using my own vehicle again, I forgot to apply the permit back to my window screen consequently I received the above mentioned fine.
I contacted Vinny Kapoor vinny@pandpmanagement.co.uk whom is the sales director at Parking & Property Management Ltd to ask if he could waiver the penalty charge on this occasion considering that I have always adhered to the permit requirement up until this instance and given the circumstances of why I had to use a hire vehicle I though he may be sympathetic of my situation, yet he declined! Vinny Kapoor then provided me with a link to complete an official appeal of which I completed, informing Parking & Property Management Ltd of the following:
Unfortunately I had a death in my family and have been travelling back and forth from my family home. I have been changing cars with another family who needed to use my car, so had to keep taking my permit out from one car to another.
Normally I’m on top of this, and it’s the first instance that this has happened because I have not been thinking clearly as you may understand.
Mackenzie Homes have been understanding and feel also that this time round considering the circumstances that the fine should be waivered.
In addition to the above I have not signed a contract agreeing to opt in to having to display a parking permit.
I feel for that it is unfair to have to pay a fine for parking in my own private parking space, of which I legally own. Furthermore, in the past I have provided the Mackenzie Homes aftersales team with my registration, clearly this was pointless as your employees obviously didn’t check your records before issuing the ticket.
Moving forward Mr Vinny Kapoor has agreed to no longer monitor my parking bay, commencing the 15th of August 2018.
Considering the above please can you waiver the charge.
In addition to my formal appeal I have now opted out of the parking permit requirement for my bay in particular and Parking & Property Management Ltd confirmed they are no longer monitoring my parking bay.
My appeal has now been declined and they have said if I wish to appeal it further I need to contact Independent Appeals Service, which is a government approved 2nd tier appeal service. After reading reviews online, I’ve read that many people say not to bother appealing it and that nothing will happen. I did however read one review in which the person was taken to court and lost, therefore had to pay the court fees and a ballooned penalty charge.
Please see below Parking & Property Management Ltd response to my appeal:
Date of PCN issued: 02/08/2018
Date of Appeal: 07/08/2018
Date of Appeal Response: 17/08/2018
Thank you for your correspondence regarding the above Parking Charge Notice (PCN).
We have considered your appeal carefully and take note of the points you have raised in mitigation;
However, we have decided that your appeal has been rejected on the following grounds.
The signage at the site is clearly visible and the information on the signage informs the driver of the parking conditions at the location. Signage is prominent throughout the parking area. Signage location, size, content and font has been audited by the Independent Parking Committee.
It is the driver’s responsibility to check for signage, check the legality and obtain any authorisation for parking before leaving their vehicle.
The fact you are in possession of a permit is not in dispute, however, as per the signage, retrospective evidence of authority to park is not accepted. The parking scheme is in place due to historical parking issues at the development. The scheme offers security and exclusivity to resident bays by combating parking is-sues.
For the basis of treating all residents fairly and equally, all vehicles parking otherwise than in accordance with the conditions must be dealt with the same way, otherwise the parking control provides no protection to the residents.
If the permit is not totally visible on the said occasion whether intentional or not, we feel the driver must take responsibility for this. We also feel that it falls into the category of not parking in accordance with the conditions, by not clearly displaying a valid permit. Signage states permits must be fully displayed in the front windscreen. Had the permit been fully and clearly displayed in the windscreen there would have been no cause to issue the PCN.
Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the permit wasn’t displayed and therefore, the operative was unable to ascertain the authority to park.
We do not record vehicle registration numbers and have never advised that specific vehicles will be recorded and exempt from displaying a permit. The area is a permit area and as such the permit advertises the entitlement to park.
In terms of your right to park on site, this is not in dispute. You have, however, been issued with a letter with a permit attached. The letter provides an opt out clause which, to our knowledge, has not been actioned. Therefore, you have accepted the terms of the signage and the conditions highlighted on the reverse of the permit issued to my address.
By ordinarily accepting and displaying the permit on a regular basis, at no point have you indicated that you were not willing to enter into a contractual undertaking with regard to the terms and conditions of use of the permit.
Whilst we empathise with your situation, we cannot allow parking without displaying a valid permit, what-ever the circumstances. By not enforcing the said issue the same situation will likely happen more often.
The reasons you have put forward for parking in a clearly regulated parking area do not justify parking otherwise than in accordance with the restrictions. You will appreciate that everyone has what they regard as reasonable grounds for parking. The location is private land and as such there is a need to ensure that only vehicles conforming to the advertised restrictions can park on site.
YOUR OPTIONS NOW ARE:
1. Pay the Parking Charge Notice. If you have made your appeal within 14 days of the issue date of the PCN, you now have a further 14 days from the date of this communication to pay the reduced rate of £60.00 per PCN. If you have appealed more than 14 days after the date of the issue of the
PCN, the full amount of £100 per PCN will be outstanding.
• You can pay by visiting the website
• By phone, calling 0207 100 2929. Please have your debit/credit card details and the information in this letter to hand.
• By post, sending a cheque or postal order made payable to Parking and Property Management Ltd to the address at the bottom of this letter.
2. If you believe this decision is incorrect, you are entitled to appeal to the Independent Appeals
Service (IAS). The Independent Appeals Service provides an Alternative Dispute Resolution scheme for disputes of this type. As you have complied with our internal appeals procedure you may use, and we will engage with, the IAS standard Appeals Service providing you lodge an appeal within 21 days of this rejection. To appeal, the IAS will need your parking charge number, your vehicle registration and the date the charge was originally issued. For further information, please visit
If you decide to use the Independent Appeals Service (IAS), the offer of a discount for early payment will be withdrawn and the full parking charge of £100 per PCN will apply if your appeal is dismissed.
Please note that the Independent Adjudicator is unable to cancel a charge on grounds of mitigation and the decision will be based on facts and evidence only.
N.B. If you appeal to the IAS and then subsequently PAY THE CHARGE prior to that appeal being determined, OR alternatively PAY THE CHARGE then attempt to appeal, the appeal will be CANCELLED and you will not be given a further opportunity to contest the charge.
Please allow 24 hours before appealing to the IAS to ensure they have received all relevant information regarding the status of your appeal to us.
3. If you chose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our debt recovery procedures and may proceed with Court action against you.
Yours sincerely
Parking & Property Management Ltd.
I would greatly appreciate any advice on how I should proceed.
Thank you in advance.
RT
0
Comments
-
The advice here when dealing with IPC companies is clear
After the inevitable initial appeal rejection ignore everything except a lbcca or Court correspondence
If it comes to this then come back at that time for advice on how to defend this
They have 6 years to start legal proceedings against you
#4 in the newbies FAQ thread covers this wait and see debt collectors stage.0 -
If you are the legal owner, why are you allowing Parking & Property Management to operate a business on your land, let alone pandering to their "conditions" and "demands"? On what basis are you the owner of the land?am the legal owner of the car parking bay
Maybe it's time YOU sent THEM an invoice for operating their business on your property, or at least tell them to FRO your land.
Seriously, you need to check out the threads here relating to "own space", and see how you can get your own back, starting with taking the management company (assuming there is one) to task, and possibly going for a DPA breach, as they may not have any cause to obtain the keeper details.0 -
When you say you are the legal owner of the parking bay is this laid out in your leasehold agreement/paperwork?0
-
Totally agree, why are you not suing them? YOU OWN THE PIECE OF LAND!The_Slithy_Tove wrote: »If you are the legal owner, why are you allowing Parking & Property Management to operate a business on your land, let alone pandering to their "conditions" and "demands"? On what basis are you the owner of the land?
Maybe it's time YOU sent THEM an invoice for operating their business on your property, or at least tell them to FRO your land.
Seriously, you need to check out the threads here relating to "own space", and see how you can get your own back, starting with taking the management company (assuming there is one) to task, and possibly going for a DPA breach, as they may not have any cause to obtain the keeper details.
Read Roger Davey v UKPC and get wise, stop grovelling:
https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?377246-UKPC-liable-for-trespass-**SUCCESS**
HTHPRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Thanks for the response. There is a management company, please can you elaborate on what you mean by ‘to task’?
What is an FRO?0 -
PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
To take to task = to hold accountable
FRO - F*** Right Off
Make up you own word for the F0 -
Oh, I wasn't expecting that. Thanks.0
-
Yes, it's stated in my lease agreement that the parking bay is legally my property.0
-
Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .
I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.
Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street0
This discussion has been closed.
Confirm your email address to Create Threads and Reply
Categories
- All Categories
- 349.8K Banking & Borrowing
- 252.6K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
- 453K Spending & Discounts
- 242.7K Work, Benefits & Business
- 619.5K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
- 176.3K Life & Family
- 255.6K Travel & Transport
- 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
- 16.1K Discuss & Feedback
- 15.1K Coronavirus Support Boards