Met parking Stansted. POPLA stage help

gran_timo

I have had a good look through the forum and i believe i can write a POPLA appeal based very closely with the one used by "FreedomReigns". Unfortunately i seem to be stuck at the first hurdle, which is all the links that are used in the appeal. Could somebody please advise where i can find these links. I may be wrong but i think its probably something to do with the posting rules where no hyperlinks are allowed. I have tried just putting HTTP in front of the link but that does not seem to work. Any help on this matter would be much appreciated, many thanks

Fruitcake

New users can't post links. You can break them with a space, or remove http, but why do you want to post links?

If you are at PoPLA stage you need to construct your draft appeal and post it here for checking by using all the available points from post 3 of the NEWBIES that are relevant.

For example, use any and all of these that are relevant,

No proof that The Driver left site
Not the landowner
No standing to bring charges
Not the person who is liable for the charge
Inadequate signage
Non POFA complaint NTK.

Plus any other relevant points.

It's better not to have links in the real appeal as the assessor may not be able to open them. Always embed quotes and images so the assessor has to see them.

Quentin

Please keep everything in the original thread and don't keep posting here!


Have you asked a board guide to merge all your threads??

fisherjim

gran_timo wrote: »

I have had a good look through the forum and i believe i can write a POPLA appeal based very closely with the one used by "FreedomReigns". Unfortunately i seem to be stuck at the first hurdle, which is all the links that are used in the appeal. Could somebody please advise where i can find these links. I may be wrong but i think its probably something to do with the posting rules where no hyperlinks are allowed. I have tried just putting HTTP in front of the link but that does not seem to work. Any help on this matter would be much appreciated, many thanks

You mean this one:


https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/74079189#Comment_74079189


Now please stop starting new threads all the time it gets confusing and makes it hard work!!

Umkomaas

Unfortunately i seem to be stuck at the first hurdle, which is all the links that are used in the appeal. Could somebody please advise where i can find these links.

The links arent 'live'. You need to place http in front of the link to access them. I notice that some have had gaps placed in the url, so you need to close up any of those. As the thread is almost 6 months old, some of the imurg images may have now been removed at source.

gran_timo

Dear all, thanks for your replies and help so far, i have contacted a board member and requested my previous threads are merged into this one as advised. I am sorry i had no idea it would cause so many problems, hopefully it will be sorted out for me.
Could i please request you good folks have a read of my draft POPLA appeal and let me know your thoughts-thank you. I know i have read about making the appeal long cos they dont like that and the PCC will not generally want to contest a long document but i have just tried to post and got a message saying post too long (25,556) maximum is 25,000 characters. do i need to shorten or can i post in two halfs for you to comment on suitability?
thank you



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gran_timo

[FONT=&quot]could you give this the once over please, is it good enough?:[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]APPEAL[/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]1 - The notice to keeper arrived more than 14 days after the Date of contravention therefore according to Schedule 4 of the POFA 2012 there is no keeper liability:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]2 - The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who may have been potentially liable for the charge[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]3 - No evidence that a random person walking into McDonalds:

(a) left the site
or
(b) was the person who parked the car[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]4 - The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]


[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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1 - The notice to keeper arrived more than 14 days after the Date of contravention therefore according to Schedule 4 of the POFA 2012 there is no keeper liability:

The date of contravention on the PCN is 25 June 2018. The date of notice issue is 16th July 2018, thus the keeper is not liable.

Conditions that must be met for purposes of paragraph 4
9
(1)
A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(b) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.
(2)
The notice must—
(a)
specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;
(b)
inform the keeper that the driver is required to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and that the parking charges have not been paid in full;
(c)
describe the parking charges due from the driver as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable;
(d)
specify the total amount of those parking charges that are unpaid, as at a time which is—
(i)
specified in the notice; and
(ii)
no later than the end of the day before the day on which the notice is either sent by post or, as the case may be, handed to or left at a current address for service for the keeper (see subparagraph (4));
(e)
state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—
(i)
to pay the unpaid parking charges; or
(ii)
if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;
(f)
warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—
(i)
the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and
(ii)
the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,
the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;
(g)
inform the keeper of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;
(h)
identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment or notification to the creditor may be made;
(i)
specify the date on which the notice is sent (where it is sent by post) or given (in any other case).
(3)
The notice must relate only to a single period of parking specified under sub-paragraph (2)(a) (but this does not prevent the giving of separate notices which each specify different parts of a single period of parking).
(4)
The notice must be given by—
(a)
handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or
(b)
sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.
(5)
The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.
(6)
A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.
(7)
When the notice is given it must be accompanied by any evidence prescribed under paragraph 10.
(8)
In sub-paragraph (2)(g) the reference to arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints includes—
(a)
any procedures offered by the creditor for dealing informally with representations by the keeper about the notice or any matter contained in it; and
(b)
any arrangements under which disputes or complaints (however described) may be referred by the keeper to independent adjudication or arbitration.

2 - The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who may have been potentially liable for the charge

In cases with a keeper appellant, yet no POFA 'keeper liability' to rely upon, POPLA must first consider whether they are confident that the Assessor knows who the driver is, based on the evidence received. No presumption can be made about liability whatsoever. A vehicle can be driven by any person (with the consent of the owner) as long as the driver is insured. There is no dispute that the driver was entitled to drive the car and I can confirm that they were, but I am exercising my right not to name that person.
In this case, no other party apart from an evidenced driver can be told to pay. I am the appellant throughout (as I am entitled to be), and as there has been no admission regarding who was driving, and no evidence has been produced, it has been held by POPLA on numerous occasions, that a parking charge cannot be enforced against a keeper without a valid NTK.
As the keeper of the vehicle, it is my right to choose not to name the driver, yet still not be lawfully held liable if an operator is not using or complying with Schedule 4. This applies regardless of when the first appeal was made and regardless of whether a purported 'NTK' was served or not, because the fact remains I am only appealing as the keeper and ONLY Schedule 4 of the POFA (or evidence of who was driving) can cause a keeper appellant to be deemed to be the liable party.
The burden of proof rests with the Operator to show that (as an individual) I have personally not complied with terms in place on the land and show that I am personally liable for their parking charge. They cannot.

Furthermore, the vital matter of full compliance with the POFA was confirmed by parking law expert barrister, Henry Greenslade, the previous POPLA Lead Adjudicator, in 2015:

Understanding keeper liability
'There appears to be continuing misunderstanding about Schedule 4. Provided certain conditions are strictly complied with, it provides for recovery of unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.
There is no 'reasonable presumption' in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort. Further, a failure by the recipient of a notice issued under Schedule 4 to name the driver, does not of itself mean that the recipient has accepted that they were the driver at the material time. Unlike, for example, a Notice of Intended Prosecution where details of the driver of a vehicle must be supplied when requested by the police, pursuant to Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, a keeper sent a Schedule 4 notice has no legal obligation to name the driver. [...] If {POFA 2012 Schedule 4 is} not complied with then keeper liability does not generally pass.'

Therefore, no lawful right exists to pursue unpaid parking charges from myself as keeper of the vehicle, where an operator cannot transfer the liability for the charge using the POFA.

This exact finding was made in 6061796103 against ParkingEye in September 2016, where POPLA Assessor Carly Law found:
''I note the operator advises that it is not attempting to transfer the liability for the charge using the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and so in mind, the operator continues to hold the driver responsible. As such, I must first consider whether I am confident that I know who the driver is, based on the evidence received. After considering the evidence, I am unable to confirm that the appellant is in fact the driver. As such, I must allow the appeal on the basis that the operator has failed to demonstrate that the appellant is the driver and therefore liable for the charge. As I am allowing the appeal on this basis, I do not need to consider the other grounds of appeal raised by the appellant. Accordingly, I must allow this appeal.''


3 - No evidence that a random person walking into McDonalds:

(a) left the site
or
(b) was the person who parked the car

The PCN has been issued for allegedly 'leaving the site'. In this case I would take this to mean that the driver has left the site and as such, has potentially breached some clearly set out terms and conditions. This being so, I would have expected the operator to provide me (the registered keeper) with proof that the driver did indeed leave the site. On reviewing the evidence, I can see that it has provided some blurry photographs allegedly taken by the operative on site that shows three unidentified individuals walking to and from McDonalds.

The fact that these photographs appear to overstep the mark of data protection - intruding on personal privacy of McDonalds/Starbucks patrons without their authorisation - is another matter that POPLA may wish to raise with the BPA and the Information Commissioner, given the impending GDPR legislation.
Given some parking operators' modus operandi of handing anyone on site (landowners, local busybodies, shop workers, office workers) a camera and telling them they will pay a bounty for 'PCNs' issued, it cannot be assumed that the person who took the images is even a parking firm employee. Even if they are, this is still a random person with no DBS check clearance, taking photos not of cars and PCNs (as per their limited licence by the landowner) but of people and families going about their daily life. MET are then processing these people's personal images and sending those photos in the post, unsolicited, to a registered keeper of a car who may or may not know the persons in the photographs, who may be nothing to do with that vehicle at all.
In any case, the photos do not evidence that the person was seen parking the vehicle in question, only that three unidentified persons were apparently photographed going towards McDonalds, then getting into the car afterwards, but that does NOT evidence who was in the driving seat when the car arrived and was parked. This cannot be assumed and could have been a third person who in fact was in the other shop on site all along, not off site like the supposed passengers.

If the DPA and GDPR allows them to even do this (again, I do not accept that it does and do not believe that any signs warn people that they - not just their vehicles - might be photographed) I would have expected the operator to provide me, the registered keeper, with evidence of who the driver actually was and where they went. This shows me no such thing. There is also no evidence that the supposed boundaries are shown on any signs or on a prominent map that drivers can see while on site, in order for them to make a reasonable decision as to what then might be considered 'off site'.

Even if a sign says a charge can be issued for 'leaving the site' this means nothing if 'the site' is not defined. This could include any number of shops, a cash point, toilets, cafe, drop off areas, delivery area, the car park itself, rest area/benches and any other section of a retail park. Even if shown walking to what looks like an exit, a driver could be simply going to read the entrance sign, as any circumspect motorist knowing how predatory parking firms are, would do in order to protect themselves from the sort of 'outrageous scam' exposed by MPs in Parliament in February when they discussed the wholly out of control 'rogue' parking industry.
It is the responsibility of the operator to provide POPLA with sufficient, clear evidence in order to rebut my claims and prove that it issued the PCN correctly and they have failed to do so, therefore POPLA will not be able to find on the evidence that any contravention occurred, nor that the driver has been evidenced. The PCN has not been properly given.

4 - The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself

I note that within the Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012 it discusses the clarity that needs to be provided to make a motorist aware of the parking charge. Specifically, it requires that the driver is given 'adequate notice' of the charge. POFA 2012 defines 'adequate notice' as follows:

''(3) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (2) 'adequate notice' means notice given by: (a) the display of one or more notices in accordance with any applicable requirements prescribed in regulations under paragraph 12 for, or for purposes including, the purposes of sub-paragraph (2); or (b) where no such requirements apply, the display of one or more notices which: (i) specify the sum as the charge for unauthorised parking; and (ii) are adequate to bring the charge to the notice of drivers who park vehicles on the relevant land''.

Even in circumstances where POFA 2012 does not apply, I believe this to be a reasonable standard to use when making my own assessment, as appellant, of the signage in place at the location. Having considered the signage in place at this particular site against the requirements of Section 18 of the BPA Code of Practice and POFA 2012, I am of the view that the signage at the site - given the minuscule font size of the £sum, which is illegible in most photographs and does not appear at all at the entrance - is NOT sufficient to bring the parking charge (i.e. the sum itself) to the attention of the motorist.

There was no contract nor agreement on the 'parking charge' at all. It is submitted that the driver did not have a fair opportunity to read about any terms involving this huge charge, which is out of all proportion and not saved by the dissimilar 'ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis' case.

In the Beavis case, which turned on specific facts relating only to the signs at that site and the unique interests and intentions of the landowners, the signs were unusually clear and not a typical example for this notorious industry. The Supreme Court were keen to point out the decision related to that car park and those facts only:
url

In the Beavis case, the £85 charge itself was in the largest font size with a contrasting colour background and the terms were legible, fairly concise and unambiguous. There were 'large lettering' signs at the entrance and all around the car park, according to the Judges.

Here is the 'Beavis case' sign as a comparison to the signs under dispute in this case:
url

This case, by comparison, does not demonstrate an example of the 'large lettering' and 'prominent signage' that impressed the Supreme Court Judges and swayed them into deciding that in the specific car park in the Beavis case alone, a contract and 'agreement on the charge' existed.
Here, the signs are sporadically placed, indeed obscured and hidden in some areas. They are unremarkable, not immediately obvious as parking terms and the wording is mostly illegible, being crowded and cluttered with a lack of white space as a background. It is indisputable that placing letters too close together in order to fit more information into a smaller space can drastically reduce the legibility of a sign, especially one which must be read BEFORE the action of parking and leaving the car.
It is vital to observe, since 'adequate notice of the parking charge' is mandatory under the POFA Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice, these signs do not clearly mention the parking charge which is hidden in small print (and does not feature at all on some of the signs). Areas of this site are unsigned and there are no full terms displayed - i.e. with the sum of the parking charge itself in large lettering - at the entrance either, so it cannot be assumed that a driver drove past and could read a legible sign, nor parked near one.

This case is more similar to the signage in POPLA decision 5960956830 on 2.6.16, where the Assessor Rochelle Merritt found as fact that signs in a similar size font in a busy car park where other unrelated signs were far larger, was inadequate:

''the signage is not of a good enough size to afford motorists the chance to read and understand the terms and conditions before deciding to remain in the car park. [...] In addition the operators signs would not be clearly visible from a parking space [...] The appellant has raised other grounds for appeal but I have not dealt with these as I have allowed the appeal.''

From the evidence I have seen so far, the terms appear to be displayed inadequately, in letters no more than about half an inch high, approximately. I put the operator to strict proof as to the size of the wording on their signs and the size of lettering for the most onerous term, the parking charge itself.


As further evidence that this is inadequate notice, Letter Height Visibility is discussed here:
url
''When designing your sign, consider how you will be using it, as well as how far away the readers you want to impact will be. For example, if you are placing a sales advertisement inside your retail store, your text only needs to be visible to the people in the store. 1-2' letters (or smaller) would work just fine. However, if you are hanging banners and want drivers on a nearby highway to be able to see them, design your letters at 3' or even larger.''



''...a guideline for selecting sign letters. Multiply the letter height by 10 and that is the best viewing distance in feet. Multiply the best viewing distance by 4 and that is the max viewing distance.''

So, a letter height of just half an inch, showing the terms and the 'charge' and placed high on a wall or pole or buried in far too crowded small print, is woefully inadequate in an outdoor car park. Given that letters look smaller when high up on a wall or pole, as the angle renders the words less readable due to the perspective and height, you would have to stand right in front of it and still need a stepladder (and perhaps a torch and/or magnifying glass) to be able to read the terms.

Under Lord Denning's Red Hand Rule, the charge (being 'out of all proportion' with expectations of drivers in this car park and which is the most onerous of terms) should have been effectively: 'in red letters with a red hand pointing to it' - i.e. VERY clear and prominent with the terms in large lettering, as was found to be the case in the car park in 'Beavis'. A reasonable interpretation of the 'red hand rule' and the 'signage visibility distance' tables above and the BPA Code of Practice, taking all information into account, would require a parking charge and the terms to be displayed far more transparently, on a lower sign and in far larger lettering, with fewer words and more 'white space' as background contrast. Indeed in the Consumer Rights Act 2015 there is a 'Requirement for transparency':

(1) A trader must ensure that a written term of a consumer contract, or a consumer notice in writing, is transparent.
(2) A consumer notice is transparent for the purposes of subsection (1) if it is expressed in plain and intelligible language and it is legible.

The Beavis case signs not being similar to the signs in this appeal at all, I submit that the persuasive case law is in fact 'Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106' about a driver not seeing the terms and consequently, she was NOT deemed bound by them.

This judgment is binding case law from the Court of Appeal and supports my argument, not the operator's case:
url
This was a victory for the motorist and found that, where terms on a sign are not seen and the area is not clearly marked/signed with prominent terms, the driver has not consented to - and cannot have 'breached' - an unknown contract because there is no contract capable of being established. The driver in that case (who had not seen any signs/lines) had NOT entered into a contract. The recorder made a clear finding of fact that the plaintiff, Miss Vine, did not see a sign because the area was not clearly marked as 'private land' and the signs were obscured/not adjacent to the car and could not have been seen and read from a driver's seat before parking.

So, for this appeal, I put this operator to strict proof of where the car was parked and (from photos taken in the same lighting conditions) how their signs appeared on that date, at that time, from the angle of the driver's perspective. Equally, I require this operator to show how the entrance signs appear from a driver's seat, not stock examples of 'the sign' in isolation/close-up. I submit that full terms simply cannot be read from a car before parking and mere 'stock examples' of close-ups of the (alleged) signage terms will not be sufficient to disprove this.


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Fruitcake

Do the signs define the boundaries of The Site? Is there a site map on the signs? How would a driver know whether they were leaving the site if the site boundary is not defined on signage?

If a parking weasel saw someone allegedly leaving site, why didn't they stop and warn them that it is prohibited?

So, put the scammers to proof that the site boundary is defined, there is a map, and that the parking weasel did in fact stop and warn the driver.

I would also change "walking into McDonalds" to walking "in the direction of McD's."

Do the photos actually show the random people have left "the site" or just heading as if they "might" leave the site? Do they actually have images of these random people outside "the site?"

Coupon-mad

Add the usual 'no landowner authority' template from the NEWBIES thread and you will have nailed it, IMHO.

gran_timo

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Add the usual 'no landowner authority' template from the NEWBIES thread and you will have nailed it, IMHO.

do you mean like this:-


[FONT=&quot]5 - No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

As this operator does not have proprietary interest in the land then I require that they produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner.

The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights, and of course all enforcement dates/times/days, and the boundary of the site - is key evidence to define what this operator is authorised to do, and when/where.

It cannot be assumed, just because an agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is authorised on the material date, to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only).

Witness statements are not sound evidence of the above, often being pre-signed, generic documents not even identifying the case in hand or even the site rules. A witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA but in this case I suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently evidence the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.

Nor would it define vital information such as charging days/times, any exemption clauses, grace periods (which I believe may be longer than the bare minimum times set out in the BPA CoP) and basic but crucial information such as the site boundary and any bays where enforcement applies/does not apply. Not forgetting evidence of the only restrictions which the landowner has authorised can give rise to a charge, as well as the date that the parking contract began, and when it runs to, or whether it runs in perpetuity, and of course, who the signatories are: name/job title/employer company, and whether they are authorised by the landowner to sign a binding legal agreement.

Paragraph 7 of the BPA CoP defines the mandatory requirements and I put this operator to strict proof of full compliance:

7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.

7.3 The written authorisation must also set out:

a the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined

b any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation

c any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement

d who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs

e the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement [/FONT]