Boundary dispute stops us selling land

montymouse

I have posted before about selling a small plot of land. It is actually my mother's far garden which is two properties away from her house - old layout!


Some years ago, before we put the land into joint tenancy, a neighbour tore down the boundary. As my Mum is elderly, and not very legally savvy, she did not object. We later put Mum's property into joint tenancy, had the garden surveyed, and redrew the boundary, putting a fence up. However since then, the neighbour has claimed that the boundary is wrong. In a sense it is, at an onsite meeting with the neighbour we agreed a new boundary which allowed for the fact that he had built a car park which encroached on the garden. We agreed a like for like exchange of triangles and strips of land, so that each party ended up with exactly the same amount of land that they started with. This was a terrible mistake, as, as soon as the fence went up, the neighbour then said it was in the wrong place. We agreed to sort it out through solicitors, but then the other side would not answer our letters. Then recently they said they wanted to resolve the issue, but again stopped replying to our letters. We tried to put the land up for sale, but they said that the land could not be sold due to the boundary issue, but that they wanted to buy it. A few estate agents have now told us that they are the only people it can be sold to.


Given that they started the issue in the first place by tearing down the boundary, can they then hold us to ransom as the only people the land can be sold to? A number of people want to buy the plot, but cannot proceed if there is a boundary dispute. We want to settle the boundary so that we can sell, but they did not respond when our solicitor wrote to theirs in March of this year.

Cakeguts

What is on the land registry plan?

Davesnave

montymouse wrote: »

We agreed a like for like exchange of triangles and strips of land, so that each party ended up with exactly the same amount of land that they started with.

You had a meeting when you thought this was agreed, but in a legal sense, it now seems nothing happened at all.

As cakeguts asks, where is the boundary on the title plan filed at the Land Registry?

Is it:
1. where your land surveyor said it should be
2.where this new fence is, or
3.somewhere different from 1 and 2?

moneyistooshorttomention

Sounds like their game plan is "Be as deliberately obstructive as possible and they'll sell to us eventually - as we are the only ones that will buy whilst we are still playing silly b&ggers".

I'd be inclined to let them know you know what they're up to and it won't work - as you simply won't sell the land to them ever and will just let it lie there rather than do so.

An "added extra" to that would be I would be seeking to get that bit of my land used for other purposes - eg turning it into a community garden of some description. Double bubble - you get a good name as community benefactor/they get the message big-time "You aren't ever going to get it - so you might as well stop being awkward".

Generally - I think you need to do a bit of "thinking outside the box" to resolve this one - as the neighbour clearly thinks they have you over a barrel and if you keep thinking conventionally - then they might manage to "tie you to that barrel".

Doozergirl

Is the disputed bit worth much? The legal costs in sorting it all out 'fairly' could be high.

If it's not worth too much, I'd consider letting them have the bit they've encroached on and sell the rest to someone.

Or they pay market value for the lot.

getmore4less

montymouse wrote: »

I have posted before about selling a small plot of land. It is actually my mother's far garden which is two properties away from her house - old layout!


Some years ago, before we put the land into joint tenancy, a neighbour tore down the boundary. As my Mum is elderly, and not very legally savvy, she did not object. We later put Mum's property into joint tenancy, had the garden surveyed, and redrew the boundary, putting a fence up. However since then, the neighbour has claimed that the boundary is wrong. In a sense it is, at an onsite meeting with the neighbour we agreed a new boundary which allowed for the fact that he had built a car park which encroached on the garden. We agreed a like for like exchange of triangles and strips of land, so that each party ended up with exactly the same amount of land that they started with. This was a terrible mistake, as, as soon as the fence went up, the neighbour then said it was in the wrong place. We agreed to sort it out through solicitors, but then the other side would not answer our letters. Then recently they said they wanted to resolve the issue, but again stopped replying to our letters. We tried to put the land up for sale, but they said that the land could not be sold due to the boundary issue, but that they wanted to buy it. A few estate agents have now told us that they are the only people it can be sold to.


Given that they started the issue in the first place by tearing down the boundary, can they then hold us to ransom as the only people the land can be sold to? A number of people want to buy the plot, but cannot proceed if there is a boundary dispute. We want to settle the boundary so that we can sell, but they did not respond when our solicitor wrote to theirs in March of this year.

How big are these triangles relative to the whole plot?

Assuming it is not the whole plot they are trying to land grab that leaves potentially just these 2 triangles.

Are they disputing one or both?
What documents are they using to show the boundary in dispute?

if they are just disputing the one they "gave" to you, what does the document they are using say about the the bit you "gave" to them.

how do these to bit affect the access to the plot etc.

Where I am going is

They could be creating a case to just restore the original boundaries.

If the bit in dispute is relatively small and does not impact any access consider letting them have it and selling what's left.

davidmcn

montymouse wrote: »

A number of people want to buy the plot, but cannot proceed if there is a boundary dispute.

Just to clarify, they can proceed, but they'd prefer not to take over the dispute from you. Others might be prepared to take a view. It's not clear from your post how big a deal it is relative to the size/usefulness of the plot. If you just want to get rid of it you could try sticking it into auction.

princeofpounds

There have been a number of mistakes here already. Allowing it in the first place. Waiting so long to address it. Making ad hoc agreements.

I!!!8217;m not trying to be mean. You would benefit a lot from getting proper legal advice. I know you have used a solicitor of some kind but clearly you haven!!!8217;t been talked through your options properly yet. This is a somewhat specialist area and your average house conveyancer can only deal with the simpler cases.

Can I suggest you post your problem on gardenlaw forums boundaries page? Please be precise about dates, and about how any agreements to date were recorded.

You can deal with this - the neighbours are just trying to legally bully you -it will take time though.

Hoploz

Seems to me the best way forward is to let them have the section they are arguing over, fence it off, and do as you like with the rest.

There will still need to be new paperwork drawn up to reflect this, but getting into a legal argument via solicitors is only going to cost you a bomb.

The important thing is what the long term aim is. If the land is useable either by you or someone you sell it to, give them the awkward bit and move on.

montymouse

Hi All - thanks for your responses, which give me a bit of food for thought.


@Cakeguts: the Land Registry title deed still gives the old boundary. It is two sides to the land that have been redrawn.


@Davesnave: yes, the Land Registry plan conforms to where the land surveyor said the boundary should be. And this boundary actually goes across the neighbour's car park, so to revert to the original boundary part of their car park would have to come up.


@moneyistooshorttomention: Yes, that could be their game plan. But they are seriously disorganised. They wanted to sell at one point (they don't live there, it was let out), but because they did not declare the boundary dispute the sale fell through. They say that they don't want to deal with solicitors, and don't like anything that involves putting things in writing. I think that your idea of turning it into a community garden is an excellent one, and I have wondered about this before.I think you are right about "thinking outside the box" to solve this one.


@Doozergirl: good points, we could just give them the disputed bits - not sure though. I'd have to think about that one. Or we could get them to pay a good price for the lot, since by selling to them, we are missing the chance of a potential bidding war between all the other people that fancy it.


@getmore4less: the triangles are a smallish portion of the whole plot. Interesting that you say they are not after the whole plot. Before it went into joint tenancy, a member of this family got my mother to sign documents that put the land into his ownership. I only found out by accident, and had to threaten him with the law before he gave the land back. It was after that that this family member tore down the boundary - we think that he was then going to try to get the land by adverse possession. It was then that I had the land surveyed, and we had the onsite meeting. Otherwise I would have had to put the fence across his car park. I now wish that I had. Also at this stage my Mum was "friends" with this family and anxious not to offend them. I think they are just disputing the boundary generally, and do not have any documents other than the title deed. There is a right of way across their land to the garden plot, so they have a lot to gain if they can buy it. It wouldn't be in their interest to go back to the original boundary, as they would have to take up part of their car park.


@davidmcn: Yes, buyers can proceed, and it's ok for us to sell as long as we declare the boundary dispute. This is what we thought when we found an estate agent willing to market the land. But as soon as it went up on Rightmove they had an abusive phone call from a member of this family, who then followed this up with a "visit" to the estate agent. Next thing, the estate agent had taken it off the market, and was telling us the only person we could sell it to was this man. (This family fancy themselves as hard nuts). We insisted that the land go back up on the market, but they changed to wording to say that there was a boundary dispute (ok, people are going to find that out anyway), and then other potential buyers withdrew their interest. We had subsequent phone calls from the estate agent telling us we should sell to this man, so I never signed the contract with the estate agent, and told them to take it off the market. I have not heard from them since. We may wait a while and then stick it on the market again.


@princeofpounds: Yes, definitely a lot of mistakes made, but made when it was in the ownership of my mother who does not know the law, and was desperate to be "friends" with this family! My solicitor is a specialist in dealing with boundaries, but this is not a straightforward case, and we are not sure where to take it next in terms of racking up costs. I can try gardenlaw - good idea.



@Hoploz: Yes, you are right, sorting it out costs a bomb. We have tried to sort it with them twice, but each time it has ended with them not responding to our letters.

Trixsie1989

If it was me I would be telling this family you want to revert to original boundary as shown by the land registry and they need to remove their car park from your land. But then I am known for being difficult