Adding remains to grave without permission

Brynsam

dori2o wrote: »

We have reason to believe that ashes have been interned in a family grave without permission of the grave owner.

Clearly the only way to find out for sure is to ask the council to dig the grave and check, but before going that far we wish to find out what the last recorded grave opening was to see if it matches the records on the grave papers.

What reason do you have to believe this? You will need very strong evidence indeed before permission will be granted to open the grave. Even then, you will not necessarily 'find out for sure' - putting it delicately, the addition of extra ashes, if loose, isn't always easy to spot.

Tom99

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Presumably someone thought these two people should share a last resting place but you don't? Are you the grave owner?[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]If an urn was buried with the councils knowledge then it has presumably been done with the council's permission so by all means ask them, but I would guess most people in that situation would scatter the ashes if the grave is suitable.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Assuming this is not some total stranger who has joined your relative so why not let them both rest in peace.[/FONT]

AnotherJoe

dori2o wrote: »

We have reason to believe that ashes have been interned in a family grave without permission of the grave owner.

Clearly the only way to find out for sure is to ask the council to dig the grave and check

That isn't clear at all. Depending what was placed there, and when, it may be close to impossible to determine if anything was added.

dori2o wrote: »

There is also the issue of whether they have damaged the crypt.

Could you not look and see if it's damaged? Even then, how would you know how the damage occurred and who did it?

dori2o wrote: »

Does anyone know what the penalty would be if someo e has accessed the grave without permission and without informing the council?

No, but how would you prove who did what.? You seem to be asking the impossible, wanting to see records when if someone did something without asking for permission, there won't be records.

dori2o

Just to explain, the grave has not knowingly been opened for 30 years.

Some years ago my Dad was approached (he is the person named on the papers) by a relative (2nd/3rd cousin) and tentative questions were asked about the possibility of their sisters ashes being placed in the grave as another of their family is in there (agreement given by my grandad at that time for the other member as he then owned the grave which was originally purchased after his mothers death)

No agreement was made but they took a copy of the first page of the grave papers.

Shortly after it was noticed the ground had been disturbed but graves around ours had been dug so it was put down to the ground having bern laid on our grave as they dug the others.

Now there has been further significant settlement of the ground only on our grave. This usually only happens when a grave is freshly opened.

This has led to the stone now falling into the grave with the settlement and the council now require it to be refixed.

If its been opened correctly by the council then thats fine, its just one of those things, but if not then its wrong.

We know its now being visited by others since tbe tentative talks some years ago which increases suspicion that someone elses ashes are in there.

There was only 1 place left in the grave from when it was opened 30 years ago. That place may now have gone.

It's unlikely without digging up that we will ever find out. It's just annoying that my parents are now faced with the bills to put things right.

AnotherJoe

dori2o wrote: »

It's unlikely without digging up that we will ever find out. It's just annoying that my parents are now faced with the bills to put things right.

WITH digging up you may not find out either, especially if it was just ashes.

Settlement does occur later on, or you wouldn't see any grave stones and monuments fall down that were very old.

Id have thought if someone dug a hole and scattered some ash in and refilled it, that wouldn't cause settlement.
Surely a "place" is a place for a body in a coffin ? You could scatter any amount of ashes. Do you think someone came along dug up the grave to 6 feet and put another coffin in there?

redpete

If there is no record of a subsequent burial then how do you think that 'a place' might have been lost?

getmore4less

How long is left on the lease?

kazwookie

Can you not contact the 2/3rd cousin and have a conversation with them?

Also with the very dry weather we have had, land / earth is moving, so it is possible that the land may have moved and have nothing to do what so ever with any one.

AnotherJoe

kazwookie wrote: »

Also with the very dry weather we have had, land / earth is moving, so it is possible that the land may have moved and have nothing to do what so ever with any one.

Good point, there are two front gardens i walk by most days that have quite big dips almost approaching hole size in their lawns that I am pretty sure were not there a couple of months ago.

dori2o

getmore4less wrote: »

How long is left on the lease?

Not sure but its got many years left as I believe it was renewed upon the last official internment 30 years ago.

The headstone is less than 30 years old and has never shown signs of movement.

This movement has not only just happened. It was noticed around 3-4 years ago not long after the enquiries were made regarding adding the ashes, in an urn (so not scattered), and have gotten worse since than.

The area that has sunk is approx 1m by 0.5 m directly in front of the stone.

It was approx Nov 2016 when the council advised that they want the stone to be fixed. It's taken time to deal with due to other more important issues being dealt with by the family.

Land that has been freshly dug will recede and often has to be infilled.

This normally takes place within the first 6-12 months. This was the information given to me after we burried our daughters ashes in her own grave in 2016. We were advised to wait at least 6 months before having her headstone installed so that any sinkage could be rectified and the land levelled again.

I'm not sure if this is the same everywhere or if it differs between LA or cemetery.

I fail to see what many of the issues here have to do with my original question.

I also see many quotes of considering the feelings of those who may have wrongly interred a person in a grave belonging to someone else. How about the feelings of those who actually own the grave?

I'll write a letter for my Dad to send to the council to confirm their records match his.

If not we'll decide what to do.

Many thanks for the comments.