Mobile Phone Update - Right of Recourse

dalek_karn

Hello all,

I have an Android mobile phone. Bought five months ago, with Android version 7 installed.

About three months ago it began downloading an update to the operating system version. I stopped the download.

The new version has a number of reported issues including worse battery life. They're not experienced by everyone, however, the phone is perfect as it is and there are no worthwhile new features in the update.

Since I work in IT, I know that while security fixes are important, the adage "if it ain't broke don't fix it" is very true. All updates are a risk. Particularly when you cannot downgrade or remove the upgrade if there's a problem: you're now stuck with it.

There is a setting on the phone to turn off these updates. However it doesn't work. There is a bug which means the phone ignores your preference.

The phone endlessly nags and there is no way to stop this. Tried resetting it but to no avail.

My experience with the phone is now being severely compromised. It is a nuisance of a thing.

I appear to have these choices:

1. Install the update
2. Live with the endless nag messages

This comes to the crux of my question:

If I do install the update, and for example the battery life is worse, who is accountable?

1. Nobody except me because I chose to install it. And it worked fine when it was sold to me. However that install is under duress. (I have an email trail with the manufacturer to demonstrate this)
2. The provider, in this case, EE - it's on a contract
3. The manufacturer

I would presume that the manufacturer, here, Samsung, could probably remove the upgrade but if I'm correct this should be done through the provider since they are accountable for the phone.

Without wanting to appear disparaging to EE it wouldn't entirely surprise me for them to say "nothing we can do". Well, there is. If you can't get any joy from the manufacturer you could replace it with a new one out of the box, for example.

I have tried to contact Samsung about this however they don't appear to understand English very well and just send stock replies. They appear to have given up replying to me now.

So, if I do install it, what right of recourse do I have if the update causes any issues, and with whom? This determines whether I live with the nag messages (and avoid buying a Samsung or Apple phone again - I moved from Apple because of precisely this problem and their bug-addled endless updates) or risk the update knowing that I have the right to be put back in the position I was in before it was installed, preferably by means of a replacement phone.

Thank you.

takman

You can downgrade to a previous version if you use the Samsung Odin software which is free. It's not the most straightforward software to use but if you work in IT you shouldn't have any problems following a guide. The negative of this is that it will wipe the phone so you will need to backup your data but it will be far quicker and easier than trying to get a replacement phone with the previous version.

dalek_karn

Thanks - I've been having a look at that.

However if I understand correctly, it looks like it's unsupported and that using it carries some risk of damaging the device and will almost certainly invalidate the warranty.

Not so much of a problem on an old device but this is nearly new.

From what I read, and this is what I'm trying to clarify:

If any software problem develops with the phone - whether that's an app download that turns out to be malicious, or, an update to the operating system which reduces functionality or performance, the retailer or provider is culpable and responsible for 'making good'.

So if it's something you cannot fix yourself, the right of recourse is with the retailer (here, that's EE).

But, EE cannot necessarily fix the problem. They do not have the same level of access to the device as the manufacturer.

Regardless, that changes nothing and in such a case, the retailer would need to negotiate a partial refund (depending on how long you had it) as is reasonable, or provide a replacement, or send it back to the manufacturer to get it repaired for you.

This is the position explained by Which magazine on their site.

It would explain why manufacturers and networks are reluctant to make updates available and places the retailer in an odd situation since they may not have been responsible in any way for the fault (it was fine when they sold it) and yet are still entirely responsible for resolving the matter.

So in this case, should I upgrade and I encounter problems, I return the phone to EE.

I can't believe it's going to be that easy and I can imagine a scneario where they might try to negotiate.. "Well;, the phone still works. The fact it drops the wii-fi now and again and has poorer battery life is merely a form of dilapidation so we'll offer you twenty quid". No, I want it replaced.

Or, if you have to send it off for repair, I want to be compensated for the time I am without it.

This is of course a much wider topic than just "mobile phones" - anything with software which self-updates.

And I wonder if my interpretation is right. It seems "too easy".

twhitehousescat

This is of course a much wider topic than just "mobile phones" - anything with software which self-updates.

ask many thousands of [people with now tv s and amazon fire sticks that were running plex and kodi

the makers of both have used auto updates on both to kill off use of plex and kodi

dalek_karn

twhitehousescat wrote: »

This is of course a much wider topic than just "mobile phones" - anything with software which self-updates.

ask many thousands of [people with now tv s and amazon fire sticks that were running plex and kodi

the makers of both have used auto updates on both to kill off use of plex and kodi

It's a murky world

I don't know much about the things of which you speak.

We have one of those Fire Stick things. The YouTube app doesn't work any more. Albeit that is a third-party service which Amazon cannot control.

My current understanding, based on what I have read, is that there is essentially no difference between a hardware and a software fault.

In either case, both are subject to the Sale of Goods Act (merchantable quality, durability) and so if an update "breaks" something this is exactly the same as if a circuit board fails.

The retailer must "make good".

That doesn't mean that they can actually fix the problem. But they have to compensate the customer adequately for the loss of functionality/refund/replace in the same way as if it were a physical hardware problem.

That's what I'm attempting to qualify but it's not proving to be straightforward.

dalek_karn

Just to add to this, and to reiterate:

The device I have has a software fault which means that the setting "Auto Update System?", set to "No", is ignored. One might cynically suspect, deliberately.

I suspect the only people who can change that are Samsung.

I have just received an email from them requesting that I either take it to the most local Samsung repair centre, or they can arrange to collect, repair and return it. "It" means "repair the software so that the setting is respected".

Reading the email I still do not believe that they are anywhere near understanding what I have actually asked for. I infer that they believe this to be a hardware issue. It is not.

However, I want to qualify if my understanding is correct - the party responsible for making good here are EE and not Samsung.

And that I will not jeopardise my position by allowing Samsung a chance to repair it first.

powerful_Rogue

dalek_karn wrote: »

In either case, both are subject to the Sale of Goods Act (merchantable quality, durability) and so if an update "breaks" something this is exactly the same as if a circuit board fails.

Consumer Rights Act, not Sales of Goods Act

powerful_Rogue

dalek_karn wrote: »

Just to add to this, and to reiterate:

The device I have has a software fault which means that the setting "Auto Update System?", set to "No", is ignored. One might cynically suspect, deliberately.

I suspect the only people who can change that are Samsung.

I have just received an email from them requesting that I either take it to the most local Samsung repair centre, or they can arrange to collect, repair and return it. "It" means "repair the software so that the setting is respected".

Reading the email I still do not believe that they are anywhere near understanding what I have actually asked for. I infer that they believe this to be a hardware issue. It is not.

However, I want to qualify if my understanding is correct - the party responsible for making good here are EE and not Samsung.

And that I will not jeopardise my position by allowing Samsung a chance to repair it first.

You have turned Auto Updates off, yet you get the notification telling you there is an update available?

Is that the software fault you are talking about?

Fosterdog

Is the phone actually still automatically updating itself or is it just nagging you to update? If it's just nagging you but not actually updating then I can't see how the auto update software is faulty, turning it off just means it will no longer update itself, it doesn't mean that it won't encourage you to update manually.

I think you're also a bit confused about what the supplier/manufacturer would actually be responsible for, you used the example of unknowingly downloading something malicious, this almost certainly would not be their responsibility.

dalek_karn

powerful_Rogue wrote: »

You have turned Auto Updates off, yet you get the notification telling you there is an update available?

Is that the software fault you are talking about?

Nearly

The setting is called "Auto Update System" which by default is set to "Yes".

I've set that to "No".

It doesn't simply notify you of an available update. It immediately starts downloading over 1GB of data by itself. There's no warning, no prompt, just a notification that this is what it is doing.

The only available "button" is "Pause". There is no "Cancel".

Having pressed that the notification is now stuck in the top menu. The settings icon has a "1" over the top of it. The settings menu has a prominent section at the top nagging about the update.

However, the most aggravating thing is that the phone will randomly put up a full page screen with "Resume" being the only option (resume the download). This has to be "killed". That's what's ruining the phone.

I tried a full reset. Denied it internet access. Set up from scratch. Turned that setting to "off".

I then enable WiFi and it then immediately detects the update and sets about downloading it again.

Actually it is possible that at the end of that I will have a cancel option but I don't think so. I think it then nags about installing the downloaded update.

I don't mind the settings screen telling me an update is available. I can ignore that. I might want to install a future update should I choose to.

I cannot ignore the full-screen in-your-face "resume the update dopwnload" screen that keeps popping up. That's what is seriously ruining the phone. None of that should be happening.

powerful_Rogue

dalek_karn wrote: »

Nearly

The setting is called "Auto Update System" which by default is set to "Yes".

I've set that to "No".

It doesn't simply notify you of an available update. It immediately starts downloading over 1GB of data by itself. There's no warning, no prompt, just a notification that this is what it is doing.

The only available "button" is "Pause". There is no "Cancel".

Having pressed that the notification is now stuck in the top menu. The settings icon has a "1" over the top of it. The settings menu has a prominent section at the top nagging about the update.

However, the most aggravating thing is that the phone will randomly put up a full page screen with "Resume" being the only option (resume the download). This has to be "killed". That's what's ruining the phone.

I tried a full reset. Denied it internet access. Set up from scratch. Turned that setting to "off".

I then enable WiFi and it then immediately detects the update and sets about downloading it again.

Actually it is possible that at the end of that I will have a cancel option but I don't think so. I think it then nags about installing the downloaded update.

I don't mind the settings screen telling me an update is available. I can ignore that. I might want to install a future update should I choose to.

I cannot ignore the full-screen in-your-face "resume the update dopwnload" screen that keeps popping up. That's what is seriously ruining the phone. None of that should be happening.

So did you only turn the option to No after you noticed an update downloading?