Dodgy wine investment???

Mrs_Frog

As my father was very ill in hospital, headed towards 'end of life' he admitted that he 'may have done something stupid' and said that he had invested circa £20K in wine. That in itself is not an issue, but it did surprise us, he has never had any interest in wine. However, now his estate is in probate, we need a valuation of the investment. This is one of the last things that the solicitor needs to apply for probate. She has contacted them, I have and my sister has, all to no avail.

The telephone number is an answering service, and although they say that they will pass messages on, we have had no contact. On their website, there is no direct email, just a 'contact us' box, again to no avail.

We are getting the feeling that this is not quite what it seems. The company's Twitter has not been active since 2016, the only thing I can find online about them is some questions raised by the wine press in 2015 (they state 15 years experience but have only been trading since 2011), and there are no reviews, positive or negative, anywhere that we can find. There have been accounts filed, that we can see, although it does not seem to have a lot of assets.

We are at the point of going to the press and social media in relation to this, particularly the lack of response. I would love to name them here, but I am not going to as yet.

Can anyone give me any advice as to what to do, short of actually turning up at their offices?

Thanks MF x

dunstonh

here have been accounts filed, that we can see, although it does not seem to have a lot of assets.

That in itself is not unusual. For example, my firm has hardly any assets. Just enough to carry the FCA regulatory requirements and usually a bit more for work in progress stuff. The holding company for the trading company has the assets. So, don't read too much into the very little information that is now published on companies house.

Can anyone give me any advice as to what to do, short of actually turning up at their offices?

You havent named the company. So, we cant really help until you do.

Many of these unregulated wine investing schemes were scams or just worthless bottles that have little or no resale value. So, you need to be prepared for the worst.

EachPenny

Mrs_Frog wrote: »

The telephone number is an answering service, and although they say that they will pass messages on, we have had no contact. On their website, there is no direct email, just a 'contact us' box, again to no avail.

I would be inclined to ask a friend/relative (i.e. a different name / phone number) to contact them via the answering service inquiring about making a modest investment, say £10k. If they get called back immediately then you know the company is still operating and taking people's money. If no response then you have to start thinking that all is not ok....

Are the Directors of the company involved in any other companies?

Mrs_Frog wrote: »

We are at the point of going to the press and social media in relation to this, particularly the lack of response. I would love to name them here, but I am not going to as yet.

Before going to the press you really need to have some kind of story to give them, other than someone has invested some money and now you cannot contact the company involved.

There is also a risk of 'naming and shaming' and then discovering there is a genuine (though perhaps not wholly excusable) reason for the lack of response, for example serious illness. That's why it is important to find out what the company directors might be doing instead of responding to your enquiries.

Mrs_Frog

Thank you for that. The issue I have is that they have information that we need, almost as a matter of urgency.
According to Kermie, when my father spoke to him about this, Dad stated that he was having difficulty in selling the wine, and that they were pressuring him to keep his stockholding, and then he got ill and was in no state to do anything. All I want to do is to actually speak to someone. We have found the MD's contact details via LinkedIn, but as yet it seems that he is ignoring that as well.

There may well be a completely innocent explanation for this, but the solicitor has been trying to get in contact with them for at least 6 weeks now, and nothing. I have a few other options that I can try in order to contact them, one of which may involve another name and telephone number, see if they call me back then, but other than that I am at a loss. Probate can't be granted until the valuation is done, and the lack of contact is holding up the process.

Thanks to those who have replied, it is appreciated.

Terry_Towelling

It might help if you were able to find out how the money was paid to the company. If there is a chance it was by credit card (or even just some of it) then there may be some redress through S75 of the Consumer Credit Act if the investment is a scam. That said, the fact your father has died and it was a while ago may count against you.

In a previous life with a credit card company we saw many issues arising out of wine investments. I also recall that many debts were written off by the card companies (not just the one I worked for) and customers were reimbursed.

There is also a chance that, even if the company has gone, the wine may still exist in a 'bonded warehouse'. Do you have any documentation that says were the wine would be held during the investment period? The investment company (if legit) was probably just a facilitator/middleman. That may be an avenue to pursue.

If you do ever track it down, the warehouse holding it may be able to offer a valuation - or even sell it for you. I'm not saying you should get your hopes too high but you never know. I have seen positive outcomes in the past.

Keep_pedalling

Who are the company?

Reed_Richards

I believe that you are allowed to submit your best estimate for a probate valuation but should amend that estimate if it comes to light that you were wrong. You have made reasonable attempts to contact the company concerned but received no response despite waiting over six weeks. So I would think that it is reasonable to assume that the company concerned is not legitimate and the "investment" has no value.

Keep_pedalling

With most of these wine investments the wine will exist and will be held in a bonded wherehouse. It will not however be investment quality wine, and will have a value way under what he paid for it.

Even the obvious solution, retrieve it and drink it, is problematical in that you would have to pay VAT and duty, and probable a service charge to get your hands on it.

What you have inherited is a liquid illiquid asset.

Is the estate large enough for IHT needing to be paid?

Paul_DNAP

I think for the probate you might want to write it off as a lost/fraudulent/valueless investment and proceed with the footnote that should it be traced the executors will dispose of the investment and distribute accordingly.

Malthusian

EachPenny wrote: »

There is also a risk of 'naming and shaming' and then discovering there is a genuine (though perhaps not wholly excusable) reason for the lack of response, for example serious illness.

If that was the reason it's not genuine either. Any legitimate company accepting investments of £20k from individual investors would have procedures in place to allow the company to continue operating even if anyone up to and including the CEO is seriously ill or dead.

The investment is almost certainly worthless but if IHT is involved, it's not as simple as writing it off. If it later turns out that the investment isn't worthless, the estate will have evaded IHT.

The solicitor dealing with the estate is responsible for deciding at what point there's no point in making any further phone calls, they can write it off and declare to HMRC that it's of nil value.

macman

Even if it is in a bonded warehouse somewhere, it will invariably be stored under the name of the dealer en bloc, and so be impossible to divide up into individual ownership amongst the unfortunate investors.
I would assume that you are going to get nothing back from this at all: if you do, it'll be a pleasant surprise.