Inheritance Tax/Care Home Fees/Depravation Assets

badmemory

I have to admit that I am a lot less concerned about £20/30k deprivation of assets than I am about someones total income being used to support someone elses lifestyle. What she is going through now is elder abuse.

YoungBlueEyes

I'm no medical expert, but I'll share my experience in case it helps.

My father was a rather poorly man for quite a few of his later years. He had cancer twice, severe COPD so plenty of chest infections, DVT's, terribly arthritic hands, life long complications from the malaria he contracted whilst working in Africa many moons ago....

After his 2nd cancer operation a few years ago, I was collecting him from hospital when a nurse pulled me to one side and said that if I wanted, a place in a home could be found for him so that I "could get on with my life rather than spending all my time looking after a broken old man" (Unfortunately for her dad heard the whole thing. I doubt she ever used that phrase again!)
A doctor spoke to us on our way out. Another long conversation but the gist was this - if dad hadn't started to show signs of dementia/old timers disease by now he was probably safe. He was mid 70's at that point. People that suffer usually start at least a decade earlier with the first little signs. He said the easy way to tell forgetfulness from dementia is like this :-
Situation 1. You've been shopping in a big mall and when you come out it takes you a few minutes to remember where you parked your car.
Situation 2. You've been shopping in a big mall and when you come out it takes you a few minutes to remember where you parked your car. But when you find it you realise you have absolutely no idea how to even open it let alone drive it home. A long story but perhaps this analogy will someone else

Dad and I had long since spoken of what would happen to him. I told him that as long as I have breath in my lungs and me 2 legs under me you'll never be put in a home. He died in his own bed on Rememberance Day last year.

This might come across as a little harsh and will possibly be an unpopular opinion, but I speak as someone who has done this. I am firmly of the opinion that if you're going to accept large amounts of money to look after your mum, then that's what you do - no matter how rough the going gets. Do it, or don't do it. You shouldn't cherry-pick and expect the LA to step in when the going gets harder. Ever heard the saying "whoever pays the piper calls the tune"? Well your mum is paying the piper/s, and she's called the tune.

As your mum isn't showing signs of dementia etc then maybe she won't get it - that'll make it much easier. But even if she does perhaps suffer further down the line, the children that are little now may be teenagers by that point and much better able to cope with it all.

Edit: I've just read post #61. You come across as very capable and certainly not afraid of hard work. If it's only the 'violent dementia' scenario that's putting you off, I wouldn't be overly worried about now at her age

lisyloo

They are sending me a pack but said she would certainly need things like gas safety certificates etc.

Being a landlord is a serious job and not a hobby.
You mention gas safety certificates. This is quite serious i.e. to prevent carbon monnoxide poisoning.
Landlords also have some responsibilities regarding illegal immigration, money laudering which our government have delegated.

You can certainly delegate some tasks to an agent which would of course be for a fee.
Maintenance needs to be kept on top of and landlords need to be responsive in urgent situations e.g. leaks, lack of hot water.
Maintenance can be expected to be greater than one's own home and some tenants could be a nightmare.
On top of this is sorting out income tax, CGT and strategies to mitigate.


Basically it's some degree of work and also responsibility/liability.
Some can be professionally delgated but of course that will cost.


I am not saying it's impossible, just that someone needs to do all the work involved and someone needs to take the responsibility. including beign able to respond quickly in urgent situations.
I certainly think it's far from ideal for anyone with other stresses in their life or who isn't totally capable on all fronts.


My husband has a limited company and we spend quite a bit of time keeping on top of the latest legal/financial ruling to work out the best (most tax efficient) way to extract money from his company e.g. pension, dividends, income.
I would imagine the same is true here as you want to set things up in the most tax efficient way and make the most of any allowances and reliefs available.
This take time, effort and a certain amount of savvy.
You can pay someone to do practically anything but accountant/solicitors are more expnesive than decorators or letting agents and ANY of them eat into profits.


I probably would be better off if I'd gotten into property but I have never fancied it on top of a full time job and other things I've chosen to do.


Of course it can work out very well, but perhaps not for people with a lots else on their plate?

SpideressUK

YoungBlueEyes wrote: »

I'm no medical expert, but I'll share my experience in case it helps.

My father was a rather poorly man for quite a few of his later years. He had cancer twice, severe COPD so plenty of chest infections, DVT's, terribly arthritic hands, life long complications from the malaria he contracted whilst working in Africa many moons ago....

After his 2nd cancer operation a few years ago, I was collecting him from hospital when a nurse pulled me to one side and said that if I wanted, a place in a home could be found for him so that I "could get on with my life rather than spending all my time looking after a broken old man" (Unfortunately for her dad heard the whole thing. I doubt she ever used that phrase again!)
A doctor spoke to us on our way out. Another long conversation but the gist was this - if dad hadn't started to show signs of dementia/old timers disease by now he was probably safe. He was mid 70's at that point. People that suffer usually start at least a decade earlier with the first little signs. He said the easy way to tell forgetfulness from dementia is like this :-
Situation 1. You've been shopping in a big mall and when you come out it takes you a few minutes to remember where you parked your car.
Situation 2. You've been shopping in a big mall and when you come out it takes you a few minutes to remember where you parked your car. But when you find it you realise you have absolutely no idea how to even open it let alone drive it home. A long story but perhaps this analogy will someone else

Dad and I had long since spoken of what would happen to him. I told him that as long as I have breath in my lungs and me 2 legs under me you'll never be put in a home. He died in his own bed on Rememberance Day last year.

This might come across as a little harsh and will possibly be an unpopular opinion, but I speak as someone who has done this. I am firmly of the opinion that if you're going to accept large amounts of money to look after your mum, then that's what you do - no matter how rough the going gets. Do it, or don't do it. You shouldn't cherry-pick and expect the LA to step in when the going gets harder. Ever heard the saying "whoever pays the piper calls the tune"? Well your mum is paying the piper/s, and she's called the tune.

As your mum isn't showing signs of dementia etc then maybe she won't get it - that'll make it much easier. But even if she does perhaps suffer further down the line, the children that are little now may be teenagers by that point and much better able to cope with it all.

Edit: I've just read post #61. You come across as very capable and certainly not afraid of hard work. If it's only the 'violent dementia' scenario that's putting you off, I wouldn't be overly worried about now at her age

Thank you. Your dad getting to die in his own bed (no matter how incredibly hard you must have worked to facilitate that) made my heart grow with the pride of a "well done"



I am thinking that it might work out that she is not able to stay with my brother down south anyway as his wife looks like she is not going to allow it. I have started looking into the shared ownership properties near me with a view to me being able to go in and look after her though I think she would need to still have some kind of SS visit too as unless she is literally around the corner I have to balance it all with my own family. I am feeling really worried that she wont be able to afford to carry on with a shared ownership thing - they seem to be talking about £250 a month in rent and £130 on top for a "service charge" whatever that is but it does not seem to cover her gas/electric) and with over £25K in the bank (which she should still have left after the sale of the house and the purchase of the shared ownership thing) she'd pay full cost of the SS visits and my friend's mum was recently paying £500-£700 a month for a 4 x daily visit arrangement!


If she is only getting £800/£900 pm then her only way of sustaining such a situation would be by living off that plus the money in her bank.......at least when she gets to less than £14K in the bank the SS visits are funded by the LA.


I really do not know what to do for the best now. One place with a higher ownership (shared) where she owns 75% is getting back to me with rental etc prices so that might help give more options as I guess the more she owns the less rent she will pay. I might just end up moving her in with me, having the granny flat built on the back of the house and risking the DOA should she ever get to a point I cannot look after her. I can cope with her getting up and needing help in the night, I am not working and the children are in school so I can nap by day if needed and if she is hopefully not likely to get violent with dementia then I think I could do pretty much everything else even if we have to get hoists etc in

SpideressUK

lisyloo wrote: »

Being a landlord is a serious job and not a hobby.
You mention gas safety certificates. This is quite serious i.e. to prevent carbon monnoxide poisoning.
Landlords also have some responsibilities regarding illegal immigration, money laudering which our government have delegated.

You can certainly delegate some tasks to an agent which would of course be for a fee.
Maintenance needs to be kept on top of and landlords need to be responsive in urgent situations e.g. leaks, lack of hot water.
Maintenance can be expected to be greater than one's own home and some tenants could be a nightmare.
On top of this is sorting out income tax, CGT and strategies to mitigate.


Basically it's some degree of work and also responsibility/liability.
Some can be professionally delgated but of course that will cost.


I am not saying it's impossible, just that someone needs to do all the work involved and someone needs to take the responsibility. including beign able to respond quickly in urgent situations.
I certainly think it's far from ideal for anyone with other stresses in their life or who isn't totally capable on all fronts.


My husband has a limited company and we spend quite a bit of time keeping on top of the latest legal/financial ruling to work out the best (most tax efficient) way to extract money from his company e.g. pension, dividends, income.
I would imagine the same is true here as you want to set things up in the most tax efficient way and make the most of any allowances and reliefs available.
This take time, effort and a certain amount of savvy.
You can pay someone to do practically anything but accountant/solicitors are more expnesive than decorators or letting agents and ANY of them eat into profits.


I probably would be better off if I'd gotten into property but I have never fancied it on top of a full time job and other things I've chosen to do.


Of course it can work out very well, but perhaps not for people with a lots else on their plate?

I am thinking that. I have seen a lot of "Can't pay, we'll take it away!" type programmes and seen a lot of the horror stories of landlords and renters. It is likely mum is going to need the full money from the sale of the house anyway in order to move and be nearer to me so I can go in and care for her or risk the idea of a granny flat on my own house leaving me potentially open to DOA in the future as it is probably not going to work out with my brother down south.

lisyloo

Have you contacted the local authority?
One suggestion for my MIL and FIL was to go into sheltered accomodation where there were nurses on site.
They did not want to move but can be great in transistioning people as their needs increase.



Could she consider a privately owned small flat?
MIL and FIL owned a small flat where there was a pullcord/helpline system in every room.
These days you can get crash mats with alarms, technology that tells you if someone hasn't moved for a while and even CCTV. There's privacy issues with CCTV but just saying there's a lot of technology that can help people stay on their own.
A lot of nusing homes we visted had crash mats so they'd know if someone had fell out of bed.

SpideressUK

lisyloo wrote: »

Have you contacted the local authority?
One suggestion for my MIL and FIL was to go into sheltered accomodation where there were nurses on site.
They did not want to move but can be great in transistioning people as their needs increase.



Could she consider a privately owned small flat?
MIL and FIL owned a small flat where there was a pullcord/helpline system in every room.
These days you can get crash mats with alarms, technology that tells you if someone hasn't moved for a while and even CCTV. There's privacy issues with CCTV but just saying there's a lot of technology that can help people stay on their own.
A lot of nusing homes we visted had crash mats so they'd know if someone had fell out of bed.

Yes, have spoken to LA in the council where her house is and she was allocated a SW who was initially saying about the 4 x a day SS visits means tested etc but they have discharged her now that she is not coming "home". Spoken to the council she is under whilst with my brother, they are not particularly interested since she is not officially their resident yet. Spoke to my own council yesterday as she might move up here for me to look after her and they cannot tell me much until she is actually here.......


We did look at sheltered accommodation at first but I don't think they were able to offer the level of care she needs - don't think there was anyone to make meals for her and she is a fussy eater so meals on wheels/farmfoods - more or less any pre-done stuff she wont eat as it normally as a bit of onion in or a bit of sweetcorn or a bit of broccli and she wont touch stuff like that. I know the district nurse comes in for her bandages and that is not paid for by her but by the NHS and when she was in a care home after Christmas temp the district nurse came and prepared the insulin before meals but at home family can do that for her.


I am looking into small flats/shared housing etc to see if she can move near me so I can look after her.

lisyloo

I haven't read the enitre thread and not sure whether this is useful by my in-laws were each allowed just over £300 income per week before having to pay for home visits.
If you need more info on that let me know and I'll see if I can dig out the calculations, but I was suprised as I felt it was generous.

SpideressUK

lisyloo wrote: »

I haven't read the enitre thread and not sure whether this is useful by my in-laws were each allowed just over £300 income per week before having to pay for home visits.
If you need more info on that let me know and I'll see if I can dig out the calculations, but I was suprised as I felt it was generous.

I think it's not so much just income but on savings. Under about £14k all SS is paid over about £23k you pay full rate, between the two you get various % of discounts.

SevenOfNine

Interesting how your brother links HIS debt with a need for your mother's income! Time he took responsibility for his own decisions & actions & stopped looking to his mummy to bail him out.

I think you may have already hit on an acceptable plan, which may avoid DoA accusations further down the line (so far your brother is responsible for what he's been doing). Granny accommodation build on to your house. Self contained for mum, you can provide care (if not on a pension yourself then you can claim carer's allowance), & still have the privacy of your own home.

Might encounter a resistant LA should mum deteriorate to such a point further down the line & really needs a care home, but TBH you can cross that bridge when you come to it, & just do what's best for her now.

Of course, you need to set up LPA's & register them now if she looks like her mental health isn't what it once was.

Edit: I know she hasn't got altzheimers, but here is a discussion on a 'granny flat'. https://forum.alzheimers.org.uk/threads/using-donors-money-for-granny-flat.107533/