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Help required in second round of IAS appeals
ygrabo
Posts: 14 Forumite
Hi everybody. This forum is great. Thanks for the info so far 
I recently overstayed in a loading bay on private land which was not marked as such.
I'll copy paste my initial IAS defence here, with their response.
What I find interesting: They never discuss the issue that the private land is not designated anywhere.
Images are in the following post
What could now be my best strategy? Thanks!
First and Foremost, I want to apologise to MediaCityUK [[They are not the parking company, but the campus where the university is, as well as BBC and ITV. It is a cool place, and I am just polite]] for overstaying at White [Street], and for the problems it may have caused.
However, I argue here that I did not enter a contract with VCS, and did therefore not breach their Terms and Conditions of Parking. My appeal focuses on the fact that signage at that particular spot is not sufficient for a reasonable driver to be seen and to be aware of the situation, and does therefore not comply with the International Parking Community (IPC) code of practice.
Here are the main points I will detail below:
1. I did not park in a car park at MediaCityUK, as the area is not signaled as private land.
2. The signage relative to the parking bay I occupied is too far away to be seen and read.
1. CAR PARK AND PRIVATE LAND
In the reply to my first rejected appeal, VCS states that "the main reason(s) for this decision are [that] the signs at the car park make it clear that the land is private property [...]".
This statement is irrelevant to my situation.
First, I did not park in a car park, but at the side of White [Street]. I did not physically enter any car park, because no signage indicated so.
There is indeed a car park in the vicinity, but the entrance is 120 meters further, in Orange [Street].
Second, in order to see the single sign (not plural as VCS states), that sign has to be seen and to be readable, which was not the case.
VCS further maintains that "the signs on this site meet the requirements set by the IPC Code of Practice". I downloaded said Code of Practice (IPC-CP) and read it with great interest. Indeed, the ICP-CP (part E) goes into detail on how resticted parking areas should be signalled to motorists by ICP members.
Amongst other guidelines, the IPC-CP states:
"Make it clear that the motorist is entering onto private land"
"Signs should, where practicable, be placed at the entrance to a site"
I found this not to be the case at MediaCityUK. When exiting "Broadway" into Blue [Street], it is not apparent by signage that the motorist is entering private land and that specific rules and signage regarding parking apply (Images 1A and 1B). However, it is indeed practicable to place big signs there to inform motorists.
In addition, there were also no signs when entering White [Street] (Image 1B).
I attended a scientific conference in the University of Salford, a PUBLIC research University. Without signage highlighting that the streets in the campus are private land, a motorist can reasonably expect signs (such as dashed red boxes) that correspond to the Highway Code, if limitations apply.
2. SIGNAGE TOO FAR TO BE NOTICED AND READ
The guidelines further state:
"Text should be of such size and in a font that can be easily read by a motorist"
"Signs must [...] be clearly legible and placed in such a position [...] such that a driver [...] is able to clearly see them upon [...] parking a vehicle within the site"
"Signs must [...] have clear and intelligible wording and be designed such that it is clear [...] that he is entering into a contract"
"Signs must [...] contain text appropriate to the position of the sign and the relative position of the person who it is aimed at"
Again, I found this not to be the case at MediaCityUK:
- The sign is more that 7 meters distant from the driver's perspective when parked, rendering easy recognition impossible (Image 2). On a side note, the sign is more that 11 meters distant from a driver looking into parking.
- The sign is in a position that is completely unrelated to the parking bay, as it is positioned in a flowerbed across a pavement. As such, it can be mistaken as another sign (Image 3).
- The content of the sign is not obvious. Evidence imagery from VCS shows a sign with pictograms of a lorry and the number 20. The pictograms are unusual and unclear for a normal driver. That sign can not be expected to be read with less that 1 inch tall letters from 7.5 meters away (Image 4).
Other signs seem much closer and reasonably placed (Image 5).
I have demonstrated here that VCS did in fact not respect the IPC Code of Practice in that instance. Let me remind you that VCS must fully adhere to the IPC scheme's Code of Practice in order to enforce a Parking Charge Notice.
I consequently ask the Parking Charge Notice to be waived, that the sign on White [Street] is positioned in a more relevant position and that it becomes clear through visible signs that MediaCityUK is private Land.
Thank you for your consideration.
The operator made the following comments...
1) The Media City area is private land divided into a number of P&D parking areas and roadways which motorists are allowed to enter for the purpose of access and to park their vehicle as long as they abide by any Terms and Conditions displayed.
2) Signage in this area states !!!8220;I am a MediaCityUK Loading only area!!!8221; and !!!8220;I am available to park in for 20 minutes. Park in a marked bay or lay by!!!8221; and makes it clear that any motorist who parks in contravention of the Terms and Conditions will be liable for a Parking Charge Notice (PCN).
3) Site photos supplied to the IAS show this signage is clearly visible in the area it pertains to.
4) Enforcement for parking contraventions at this car site is undertaken by patrol officers who use a Hand Held Terminal (HHT) to record details of any vehicle and its registration number, which may be parked in contravention of the advertised Terms & Conditions. Those images and other relevant information are uploaded in real time to a secure portal, where the information is reviewed. No formal Parking Charge Notice is affixed to the vehicle; instead, a formal Notice is subsequently issued by post, this practice falls in line with the process and procedures as per site management using ANPR technology.
5) However, as a means of forewarning the driver that a parking contravention may have been identified, an MPC (MyParkingCharge) card is affixed to the vehicle in order to prevent a possible re-occurrence of a parking contravention, prior to a formal notice being received. That card is deemed to be "A Call to Action", and allows the driver the opportunity to view details of the parking incident on the MyParkingCharge gateway and, as appropriate, supply details, make an appeal, or make payment.
6) A series of images were taken showing the location of the vehicle in relation to the signs on site, they are time and date stamped and show the appellant!!!8217;s vehicle parked adjacent to at least one of the warning signs.
7) The Patrol Officer (PO) observed the appellant!!!8217;s vehicle in situ before issuing the MPC card. When digitally recording the contravention, the PO noted !!!8220;vehicle parked in a loading bay for longer than the maximum period permitted, max stay allowed 20mins & it's exceeded that time limit.!!!8221;
8) Our time and date stamped photographic evidence supplied shows the appellant!!!8217;s vehicle parked as observed by the PO. The photographs show that the PO observed the appellant!!!8217;s vehicle for 21 minutes; which is 1 minute longer than the maximum permitted.
9) In their appeal the appellant states: !!!8220;I argue here that I did not enter a contract with VCS, and did therefore not breach their Terms and Conditions of Parking.!!!8221;
10) A person can enter into a contract either by expressly agreeing to do so or by acting in such a way that they can be said to have implied agreement to enter into a contract. Where notice is given to a motorist of the consequences of parking in a particular area, by implications a motorist enters into a contract with Vehicle Control Services Ltd and accepts the terms set out in the Notice by proceeding to park.
11) The appellant further states: !!!8220;My appeal focuses on the fact that signage at that particular spot is not sufficient for a reasonable driver to be seen and to be aware of the situation, and does therefore not comply with the International Parking Community (IPC) code of practice.!!!8221;
12) We maintain that the signage in this area meets the requirements set by the International Parking Community (IPC) Code of Practice . The signage is large, prominent and legible, so that any reasonable user of the car park would be aware of its existence and nature, and would have a fair opportunity to consult it if he or she wished to do so. It can never be a defence to a claim in contract law to say, "I did not read the terms", so long as the existence of those terms is reasonably advertised.
13) Our supplied contravention photographs highlight the proximity of the appellant!!!8217;s vehicle to the signage. Whilst the appellant argues the signage is not readable from their parked position, the adjudicator will note that once the motorist has received notification from the presence of signage that Terms and Conditions are in effect it is their responsibility to ensure they consult and comply with these Conditions, and in many cases this will mean the motorist must leave their vehicle. It is not necessary for the signage to be fully readable from the parked position of the vehicle.
14) The adjudicator will note the International Parking Community (IPC) Code of Practice states entrance signage is only necessary where practicable. The Terms and Conditions do not apply to the entirety of the roadway so it would be unnecessary and misleading to place entrance signage on the beginning of the roadway. We contend the clear and prominent signage in place at this site is more than sufficient to cover the small number of parking bays it applies to.
15) The fact that the appellant was attending a conference at a public institution, in this case a University, that is adjacent to this site does not constitute mitigation. Motorists should not assume they are parked on public land on the basis of other nearby institutions. The signage in close, visible proximity to the appellant made it clear they were parked on private land.
16) When entering this private land it was solely the responsibility of the appellant to familiarise themselves with, and to FULLY comply with the contractual Terms and Conditions displayed. In this case, it was the appellant!!!8217;s vehicle to return to their vehicle before the expiry of the 20 minute maximum stay period.
17) As the vehicle was parked beyond the maximum period allowed of 20 minutes, the appellant became liable for a Parking Charge, as per the Terms and Conditions displayed.
I recently overstayed in a loading bay on private land which was not marked as such.
I'll copy paste my initial IAS defence here, with their response.
What I find interesting: They never discuss the issue that the private land is not designated anywhere.
Images are in the following post
What could now be my best strategy? Thanks!
First and Foremost, I want to apologise to MediaCityUK [[They are not the parking company, but the campus where the university is, as well as BBC and ITV. It is a cool place, and I am just polite]] for overstaying at White [Street], and for the problems it may have caused.
However, I argue here that I did not enter a contract with VCS, and did therefore not breach their Terms and Conditions of Parking. My appeal focuses on the fact that signage at that particular spot is not sufficient for a reasonable driver to be seen and to be aware of the situation, and does therefore not comply with the International Parking Community (IPC) code of practice.
Here are the main points I will detail below:
1. I did not park in a car park at MediaCityUK, as the area is not signaled as private land.
2. The signage relative to the parking bay I occupied is too far away to be seen and read.
1. CAR PARK AND PRIVATE LAND
In the reply to my first rejected appeal, VCS states that "the main reason(s) for this decision are [that] the signs at the car park make it clear that the land is private property [...]".
This statement is irrelevant to my situation.
First, I did not park in a car park, but at the side of White [Street]. I did not physically enter any car park, because no signage indicated so.
There is indeed a car park in the vicinity, but the entrance is 120 meters further, in Orange [Street].
Second, in order to see the single sign (not plural as VCS states), that sign has to be seen and to be readable, which was not the case.
VCS further maintains that "the signs on this site meet the requirements set by the IPC Code of Practice". I downloaded said Code of Practice (IPC-CP) and read it with great interest. Indeed, the ICP-CP (part E) goes into detail on how resticted parking areas should be signalled to motorists by ICP members.
Amongst other guidelines, the IPC-CP states:
"Make it clear that the motorist is entering onto private land"
"Signs should, where practicable, be placed at the entrance to a site"
I found this not to be the case at MediaCityUK. When exiting "Broadway" into Blue [Street], it is not apparent by signage that the motorist is entering private land and that specific rules and signage regarding parking apply (Images 1A and 1B). However, it is indeed practicable to place big signs there to inform motorists.
In addition, there were also no signs when entering White [Street] (Image 1B).
I attended a scientific conference in the University of Salford, a PUBLIC research University. Without signage highlighting that the streets in the campus are private land, a motorist can reasonably expect signs (such as dashed red boxes) that correspond to the Highway Code, if limitations apply.
2. SIGNAGE TOO FAR TO BE NOTICED AND READ
The guidelines further state:
"Text should be of such size and in a font that can be easily read by a motorist"
"Signs must [...] be clearly legible and placed in such a position [...] such that a driver [...] is able to clearly see them upon [...] parking a vehicle within the site"
"Signs must [...] have clear and intelligible wording and be designed such that it is clear [...] that he is entering into a contract"
"Signs must [...] contain text appropriate to the position of the sign and the relative position of the person who it is aimed at"
Again, I found this not to be the case at MediaCityUK:
- The sign is more that 7 meters distant from the driver's perspective when parked, rendering easy recognition impossible (Image 2). On a side note, the sign is more that 11 meters distant from a driver looking into parking.
- The sign is in a position that is completely unrelated to the parking bay, as it is positioned in a flowerbed across a pavement. As such, it can be mistaken as another sign (Image 3).
- The content of the sign is not obvious. Evidence imagery from VCS shows a sign with pictograms of a lorry and the number 20. The pictograms are unusual and unclear for a normal driver. That sign can not be expected to be read with less that 1 inch tall letters from 7.5 meters away (Image 4).
Other signs seem much closer and reasonably placed (Image 5).
I have demonstrated here that VCS did in fact not respect the IPC Code of Practice in that instance. Let me remind you that VCS must fully adhere to the IPC scheme's Code of Practice in order to enforce a Parking Charge Notice.
I consequently ask the Parking Charge Notice to be waived, that the sign on White [Street] is positioned in a more relevant position and that it becomes clear through visible signs that MediaCityUK is private Land.
Thank you for your consideration.
The operator made the following comments...
1) The Media City area is private land divided into a number of P&D parking areas and roadways which motorists are allowed to enter for the purpose of access and to park their vehicle as long as they abide by any Terms and Conditions displayed.
2) Signage in this area states !!!8220;I am a MediaCityUK Loading only area!!!8221; and !!!8220;I am available to park in for 20 minutes. Park in a marked bay or lay by!!!8221; and makes it clear that any motorist who parks in contravention of the Terms and Conditions will be liable for a Parking Charge Notice (PCN).
3) Site photos supplied to the IAS show this signage is clearly visible in the area it pertains to.
4) Enforcement for parking contraventions at this car site is undertaken by patrol officers who use a Hand Held Terminal (HHT) to record details of any vehicle and its registration number, which may be parked in contravention of the advertised Terms & Conditions. Those images and other relevant information are uploaded in real time to a secure portal, where the information is reviewed. No formal Parking Charge Notice is affixed to the vehicle; instead, a formal Notice is subsequently issued by post, this practice falls in line with the process and procedures as per site management using ANPR technology.
5) However, as a means of forewarning the driver that a parking contravention may have been identified, an MPC (MyParkingCharge) card is affixed to the vehicle in order to prevent a possible re-occurrence of a parking contravention, prior to a formal notice being received. That card is deemed to be "A Call to Action", and allows the driver the opportunity to view details of the parking incident on the MyParkingCharge gateway and, as appropriate, supply details, make an appeal, or make payment.
6) A series of images were taken showing the location of the vehicle in relation to the signs on site, they are time and date stamped and show the appellant!!!8217;s vehicle parked adjacent to at least one of the warning signs.
7) The Patrol Officer (PO) observed the appellant!!!8217;s vehicle in situ before issuing the MPC card. When digitally recording the contravention, the PO noted !!!8220;vehicle parked in a loading bay for longer than the maximum period permitted, max stay allowed 20mins & it's exceeded that time limit.!!!8221;
8) Our time and date stamped photographic evidence supplied shows the appellant!!!8217;s vehicle parked as observed by the PO. The photographs show that the PO observed the appellant!!!8217;s vehicle for 21 minutes; which is 1 minute longer than the maximum permitted.
9) In their appeal the appellant states: !!!8220;I argue here that I did not enter a contract with VCS, and did therefore not breach their Terms and Conditions of Parking.!!!8221;
10) A person can enter into a contract either by expressly agreeing to do so or by acting in such a way that they can be said to have implied agreement to enter into a contract. Where notice is given to a motorist of the consequences of parking in a particular area, by implications a motorist enters into a contract with Vehicle Control Services Ltd and accepts the terms set out in the Notice by proceeding to park.
11) The appellant further states: !!!8220;My appeal focuses on the fact that signage at that particular spot is not sufficient for a reasonable driver to be seen and to be aware of the situation, and does therefore not comply with the International Parking Community (IPC) code of practice.!!!8221;
12) We maintain that the signage in this area meets the requirements set by the International Parking Community (IPC) Code of Practice . The signage is large, prominent and legible, so that any reasonable user of the car park would be aware of its existence and nature, and would have a fair opportunity to consult it if he or she wished to do so. It can never be a defence to a claim in contract law to say, "I did not read the terms", so long as the existence of those terms is reasonably advertised.
13) Our supplied contravention photographs highlight the proximity of the appellant!!!8217;s vehicle to the signage. Whilst the appellant argues the signage is not readable from their parked position, the adjudicator will note that once the motorist has received notification from the presence of signage that Terms and Conditions are in effect it is their responsibility to ensure they consult and comply with these Conditions, and in many cases this will mean the motorist must leave their vehicle. It is not necessary for the signage to be fully readable from the parked position of the vehicle.
14) The adjudicator will note the International Parking Community (IPC) Code of Practice states entrance signage is only necessary where practicable. The Terms and Conditions do not apply to the entirety of the roadway so it would be unnecessary and misleading to place entrance signage on the beginning of the roadway. We contend the clear and prominent signage in place at this site is more than sufficient to cover the small number of parking bays it applies to.
15) The fact that the appellant was attending a conference at a public institution, in this case a University, that is adjacent to this site does not constitute mitigation. Motorists should not assume they are parked on public land on the basis of other nearby institutions. The signage in close, visible proximity to the appellant made it clear they were parked on private land.
16) When entering this private land it was solely the responsibility of the appellant to familiarise themselves with, and to FULLY comply with the contractual Terms and Conditions displayed. In this case, it was the appellant!!!8217;s vehicle to return to their vehicle before the expiry of the 20 minute maximum stay period.
17) As the vehicle was parked beyond the maximum period allowed of 20 minutes, the appellant became liable for a Parking Charge, as per the Terms and Conditions displayed.
0
Comments
-
Hi everybody. This forum is great. Thanks for the info so far
I recently overstayed a 20 minute parking on private land which was not marked as such.
I'll copy paste my initial IAS defence here and then their response.
First and Foremost, I want to apologise to MediaCityUK for overstaying at White [Street], and for the problems it may have caused.
.
like a lamb to the slaughter ,0 -
Everyone is politely asked to read up on this in the Newbies FAQ thread near the top of the forum before starting a new thread
If you go there now you will get an understanding of this and why further appeals to IAS are futile
Ignore everything now except a lbcca or Court correspondence.
They have 6 years to start legal action against you0 -
IMAGE 1A - Entrance of "Blue" as seen from Broadway (google street view)
[IMG]hxxp://ygrabo.com/YvG-Image1A.png[/IMG]
IMAGE 1B - Entrance of "White"; as sen from "Red" (google street view), the street that I parked in
[IMG]hxxp://ygrabo.com/YvG-Image1B.png[/IMG]
IMAGE 2 - Distance from the parked driver to the sign (google maps)
[IMG]hxxp://ygrabo.com/YvG-Image2.png[/IMG]
IMAGE 3 - View of the sign in the flowerbed from the street (google street view)
[IMG]hxxp://ygrabo.com/YvG-Image3.png[/IMG]
IMAGE 4 - View of the sign from the car (evidence from VCS)
[IMG]hxxp://ygrabo.com/YvG-Image4.png[/IMG]
IMAGE 5 - Example of reasonably placed sign on "Blue" (google street view)
[IMG]hxxp://ygrabo.com/YvG-Image5.png[/IMG]0 -
@quentin
I have read that, but I can still defend myself for now (who knows what happens later - at least I can show I dealt with it), and THEN stop answering?0 -
going by the above you have done much 'reading up'
but
you should know that the forum ( mostly) does not recommend appeals to the 'kangaroo court' that is the IAS ....
the reason ?
you will all most certainly loose ......
so unless any of the 'learned' forum members suggest that you have a case to continue with .... then your time would be better spent reading up on defending court cases should those nice people at VCS decide on such ...
good luck anyway
Ralph:cool:0 -
@quentin
I have read that, but I can still defend myself for now (who knows what happens later - at least I can show I dealt with it), and THEN stop answering?
The reason not to carry on to an IAS appeal is it will be futile for you but a point for the PPC to raise (that an independent adjudication went against you)
By appealing to the PPC you can show you didn't simply ignore this if it gets to court0 -
Quentin,
So by appealing I start an "investigation" that should rather not happen, especially if I am wrong, correct?
But if I appeal, I show a potential court that I dealt with the stuff and did not simply ignore it, especially if I am wrong, correct?
So here we go. I think I have "a case" and they did not do what they should have done, i.e. making it clear that the whole area is private land.
In any case, it is pointless telling me that I should not have appealed, since now I have appealed. The question is what I should do now to make my case and prepare whatever could or not come next, one day. They might have up to 6 years to start a court thing, but they can do it within a week as well.
Sorry if I am not experienced with tickets and appeals, first ticket in 15 years driving...0 -
What do you think 'private land' is, and why do you reckon it needs special marking? My front garden and drive is private land, so is your GP's surgery car park. Both with no special signs up. Why do people think it's something with special meaning?I recently overstayed a 20 minute parking on private land which was not marked as such.
Private land is any land not Council owned (therefore every piece of land you care to mention that isn't roads/highways or Council car parks). Why would anyone choose private land to stop, you are better off on double yellows on a Council street.
Your IAS appeal is futile, unless you can PROVE and have proved, this, with evidence:First, I did not park in a car park, but at the side of White [Street]. I did not physically enter any car park, because no signage indicated so.
There is indeed a car park in the vicinity, but the entrance is 120 meters further, in Orange [Street].PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Quentin,
So by appealing I start an "investigation" that should rather not happen, especially if I am wrong, correct?
But if I appeal, I show a potential court that I dealt with the stuff and did not simply ignore it, especially if I am wrong, correct?
So here we go. I think I have "a case" and they did not do what they should have done, i.e. making it clear that the whole area is private land.
In any case, it is pointless telling me that I should not have appealed, since now I have appealed. The question is what I should do now to make my case and prepare whatever could or not come next, one day. They might have up to 6 years to start a court thing, but they can do it within a week as well.
Sorry if I am not experienced with tickets and appeals, first ticket in 15 years driving...
You have misunderstood
We know that you have appealed to the PPC
The advice when dealing with an IPC company is to then not engage with their IAS.
All explained as advised in #1 of the Faq0 -
@Coupon-mad
Private Land is a thing where other rules than the highway code apply (in motoring terms). But you should be made aware that it is private land. I did not park on a lawn or in the yard of a building company, but on the side of a street in a new campus where other cars were parked.
A garden off the road seems pretty obvious to be private land, especially since it usually has a gate, fence or something... A designated parking area behind a house for example specifically for a doctor or shop is clear as well.
But how do you determine if the street you are currently driving on is private land or not? I can not even find the answer to that online, I would need to email the Manchester city council for that.
"why do you reckon it needs special marking?"
> Because it is just a road that you turn into. Turn left after the red lights, bam, you are in private land and all roadside parking spots become private. How should I know? It's NOT like driving into the ASDA car park or something, it is just a normal looking road with roadside parking.. No yellow or red lines on the ground in a normal street - cool, a parking spot!
Also, the IPC code of conduct states that it should be clearly indicated when you enter private land.
Please look at the images further up.0
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