NCP PCN to Keeper - POFA 2012 non compliant ( I think)

Nonum2018

Hi,


First thanks to the people who contribute to this board, after a bit of reading around this seems like a very active place with helpful posters, so hoping i can get an answer too :-).


I have received a PCN from NCP for my vehicle. I was at work at the time so will be replying to this as I am the keeper, but was not the driver.


I have read through the newbie thread so I need to reply online to NCP with the template, however I'm not sure if i need to just send as is in order to get a POPLA ref or if I was add to add in additional points it may not need to go as far as POPLA?



As the keeper of the vehicle and having read through the notice several times I cant see any references to POFA 2012 on front or back - so if I mention this to PCN does it give them time to resend me one that does? or are they likely to just reject and send me to POPLA? or is there good chance the appeal will be upheld and save everyone the time?


Also the duration is under 2hrs 20minutes. There is no evidence anywhere to state what duration was actually paid for - shouldn't this have been on the notice? If so is that a failure and should it be noted? and if paid for parking was 2hrs and overstay with 20 minutes does that also fall within the 2x10minute grace periods?



I haven't actually been to the carpark to do any checks on the signage ect.. should I before sending the appeal in?



The templates only seems to mention signage with the aim of getting to POPLA - Im just not sure if these points should be brought up now or they are the sort of points you have to take through to the POPLA Appeal.


I have attached edited pics of the notice if that helps.

Thanks in advance - I know you only really want posts that are appealing but have various people telling me to just pay the discounted fine - so really just hopeing for confirmation what i think is correct and if it worth putting in the appeal or not. As Im just the keeper as was 100% not the driver I don't see that I should have to anyway.


wont let me add the pics as a new user. they are on tinypic.com if you can look there then the following after the .com



/r/2h5iu1d/9
and
/r/2zg92xj/9

Umkomaas

http://tinypic.com/r/2h5iu1d/9
and
http://tinypic.com/r/2zg92xj/9

Dates ok for PoFA compliance.

They've made an attempt at compliance with their paragraph '...after 28 days....', but that does not meet the strict PoFA requirement in order to hold the keeper liable.

They can't re-issue the NtK.

Unlikely they will uphold the appeal by adding anything of the above. Get POPLA to do that. So just use the one-size-fits-all template - unaltered.

Getting your own pics of the signage is always recommended, but no need to hold off your initial appeal. Get them before your POPLA appeal.

Quentin

Send the template appeal as is.

Also check out the PPC at parkingappeals.info to see their current approach to going to court!

Nonum2018

OK thanks for quick responses. I looked on links from parking appeals, it has a link to a website showing low risk for NPC but not sure if that means there current approach is to go to court - by saying to check there do you think this ticket is not likely to win with POPLA appeal on PoFA non compliance grounds then?



I had noticed an image of a ticket on the newbies thread which stated


"due to the excessive space in the following area [does that make a difference??] there is no mention of Keep Liability aswell as POFA Legislation, therefore the PCN has been issued is non-PoFA compliant"

As my notice does not seem to mention PoFA anywhere I thought that would mean its not compliant and basically it would not be worth them following up and going to POPLA if mentioned.



as per paragraph 9, section 2
(f)warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given!!!8212;

(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and

(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,

the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;



It doesn't actually seem to state that me as the keeper can be found liable if i do not know who the driver at that time was or they will recover the costs from the keep. Notice just states a warning if not paid in full after period of 28 days ..... then finishes.....


further recovery action will be taken to secure payment.

Quentin

Check the ppcs court hearing history.

Though bear in mind that they have 6 years to start legal action against you and no-one can know how their business model may change over the years

Nonum2018

Hi,
as recommended i submitted appeal as keeper and have now received my POPLA code. This came a couple weeks back but ive been away so have just under 2 weeks to appeal i believe.


Ive reread the stage 2 POPLA appeal so think Im ready to put it together. My appeal will be on the following grounds I think so would be grateful for comments.


1.PoFA non compliance - paragraph 9, section 2(f) I do not see anywhere the PCNtK referencing transfer of liability to keep or any reference to PoFA at all. two lines reference 28 day periods, the first stating payment must be made within this and the second stating after 28 days further recovery action will be taken. The first reply to my message from Umkomaas contains the links to the PCNtK, would be grateful if someone could take a look and confirm if this non compliant as I think.


2.Signage I have taken pics and put in a PDF which I will attach. I have no idea which way the driver at the time would have entered the car park, but from "car park on left" only a tiny terms and conditions, camera sign and some parking offer is visible. Entry with car park on right has a high up sign, but i don't believe this is exactly easily visible and readable while driving. There are several other small high up signs around the carpark and a terms and conditions sign which is tiny lettering. Also the car park has 3 areas and the top area has no visible signs (I no idea where the actual driver would have parked anyway).
3.Grace periods - the total parking time according to the notice was approx 2hrs 19minutes. With 2 hours parking paid for would this be covered by a 10 minute grace periods on entry and 10 minutes on exit.


4- add on the landowner authority section.


Would be grateful for your views and advice.

Thanks




ive added pic on google drive but cant post link. its made up of:
https:
//
drive.google.com
/
open?id=14ZrINzA6jZJMMIlXYfvls7JSVYwEPdC9

Nonum2018

Just wanted to add, while reading some other rejections people got from NCP, specifically a post from Plodge - NCP Appeal rejected (19th May)


thread link ending -

showthread.php?t=5844823&highlight=ncp+ntk+popla



The rejection they got quoted all the PoFA on liability transferring to keeper.


My rejection does not state any of this. They state "you" overstated your paid parking! So they seem to be ignoring the fact I am the keeper of the vehicle and accusing me of being the driver.


I have screenshots of my appeal submission and it clearly states Appellant Type Vehicles Keeper



I submitted the template stating I appeal as keeper, with additional line that I the keeper, was working this day and during those hours.


Dear XXXXXXXXXX
Re: Parking Charge Notice Number XXXXXXX(Vehicle: XXXXX
Site:XXXXXXX
Issue date: XX/06/2018
Thank you for your appeal received on XX/06/2018 regarding the above detailed Parking Charge
Notice, we have reviewed your case and considered the comments you have made. Your appeal has
also been considered in conjunction with the evidence gathered by our Automatic Number Plate
Recognition cameras, which record your entry and exit times. Our records show the notice was
correctly issued as your vehicle was parked in breach of the Terms and Conditions of Parking.
Regarding your appeal we can confirm we have located the payment which was made however only tw
hours of parking was purchased therefore you overstayed your paid for parking.
We are therefore unable to cancel the Parking Charge Notice as it was issued correctly. We have now
extended the discounted payment period by a further 14 days to allow you time to pay the discounted
settlement amount. Please now make payment of £60 to reach us by XX/07/2018 or £100 to reach us
by XX/08/2018. We must advise you that once the discounted settlement rate passes it will not be
offered again.
Payments can be made by cheque or postal order made payable to National Car parks Limited, please
ensure you write your Parking Charge Notice number clearly on the reverse. Please do not send cash
through the post.
Payment can also be made using a debit or credit card on our website;
LINK REMOVED TO POST
You can also pay using our Automated Payment Line: 03330230498
You have reached the end of our internal appeals procedure. NCP will not assess further appeals in
relation to this matter. However, in line with our Accredited Trade Association (ATA) membership we
are required to provide you with an Independent Appeals Service. If you wish to appeal your case
further you can now only do so to Parking On Private Land Appeals (POPLA) provided by Ombudsman
Services on instruction of the British Parking Association.
All information on how to appeal to POPLA is provided on their website; LINK REMOVED you will need
the following 10-digit verification code to submit your appeal; XXXXXXXXXX
Please note that should you wish to appeal to POPLA you must do so within 28 days from the date of
this letter. If POPLA reject your appeal you will be liable for the full amount of this PCN. The discounted
amount will not be reinstated under any circumstances. POPLA will also not asses a case that has
been paid prior to the appeal being received by them.
By law we are also required to inform you, Ombudsman Services LINK REMOVED)
provides an alternative dispute resolution service (ADR) that would be competent to deal with your
appeal. However, NCP have chosen not to participate in their ADR service and as such should you
wish to appeal further you must do so to POPLA as detailed above.
Yours sincerely,
Appeals Department
National Car Parks Ltd.

Quentin

Await your popla code and proceed to appeal as keeper

The_Deep

This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the House of Commons recently

http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41 recently.

and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.

The_Slithy_Tove

Umkomaas wrote: »

http://tinypic.com/r/2h5iu1d/9

They've made an attempt at compliance with their paragraph '...after 28 days....', but that does not meet the strict PoFA requirement in order to hold the keeper liable.

I wouldn't even call it an attempt. While it mentions 28 days, it then fails to say anything about knowing who the driver is or who it can then hold liable for the charge; merely talks about whether it's been paid or not. An instant POFA fail. Crazy (for them) as they try to put in various other POFA-type wording, but then fail so miserably.

Nonum2018

Hi,
I already have my POPLA code. per my last 2 posts i need to put my appeal together now and just after views on my main appeal points as listed above , with the main one I believe to be non compliant. As nothing talks about transfer of liability to the keeper.

Searching on NCP POPLA there seem to be a couple recently rejected so want to make sure i get it right.



1.PoFA non compliance - paragraph 9, section 2(f) I do not see anywhere the PCNtK referencing transfer of liability to keep or any reference to PoFA at all. two lines reference 28 day periods, the first stating payment must be made within this and the second stating after 28 days further recovery action will be taken. The first reply to my message from Umkomaas contains the links to the PCNtK, would be grateful if someone could take a look and confirm if this non compliant as I think.

2.Signage - pics link in my original reply

3. grace periods 2X 10 min periods