UK CPM and their PCN in the private parking space, while I was travelling

Simonas

Hi everyone,

I hope you could help me with some advice.

I am posting this thread since I have not found anything like my situation in the NEWBIES thread. This is about two PCN I received from UK CPM for my two cars parked in the allocated parking space at the house I occupy as a tenant. This area is a new development and such car park operator service did not exist there before.

I was on holiday outside the UK between 15th December 2017 and 9th January 2018. And during this time (from 29th December 2017 to 9th January 2018), UK CPM sent letters informing that they will start operating, distributed parking permits and started charging cars without permits. I received mine on the same day I came back to the UK, my plane landed on 16:20 and the tickets had been issued at 16:01. I was very surprised to find PCN sticking on my windscreens, since I had no prior knowledge of such service to start operating and no physical ability to place permits since I was travelling outside the UK. I have all the evidence to prove that, such as flight confirmations and card payment transactions in the country I had stayed. I used my card there on numerous days including 9th January, 2018.

Appeal:
I appealed on 12th January and two weeks later called to check on the status of my appeal. They said they had received it but could not respond since there was no back address on the envelope (even though the address was clearly stated in the appeal). I was requested to resend this with back address, which I did. Later (end January) I phoned them again and was told that my appeal was under consideration and that I should wait for further information from them. And that was the last communication I had with UK PCM until the first week of May when the first letter from the Debt Collector arrived.

I dialed UK CPM to see what was happening. I was told that they had rejected my appeal, had replied to me and if I am not happy then I should contacts the IAS. But that is a lie, I never received any letter of rejection from them and therefore lost my chance to appeal formally within the dedicated time period. Nevertheless, I still sent the letter of appeal to the IAS and was informed that they would not be looking into this case because the appeal period had ended (operator rejected on 12 March and I had up until 2nd April to appeal with the IAS).

I hope you can advise whether I should wait for the LBCCC and go straight to court or contact some other body to look at my case (formal appeal period ended), as I think I was treated unfairly and therefore I am unwilling to pay. At this stage, since the formal appeal period has ended I do not know who to go to in order to deal with this. POPLA do not deal with such cases. I spoke with Citizen Advice, their recommendation was either to pay or to wait for the court letter.

Would really appreciate your thoughts and advice.

fisherjim

Welcome to the scammers world of the PPC, pity you didn't come here first you are dealing with a greedy nasty company that is only after your money, they have no interest in you, your situation or managing car parking!


This is an unregulated industry, complain to your MP they know about these scammers, complain to trading standards, appealing to the IAS is a waste of time they support the scam.

Read the "Newbies thread" at the top of this forum for more information.

Stop phoning them it's of no use to you and they will use anything they can against you.



Only a judge can decide on whether this made up charge is fair or not, and these muppets do go to court.


What did the Managing Agents say when you complained to them that the idiot scammers they engaged have issued you this ridiculous charge?


What does your tenancy agreement say about parking?

The_Deep

This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.

Loadsofchildren123

This situation (the introduction of a PPC and permits) is very common on here and is not unique. Search for other residential threads.


The situation with being abroad and being given no time to comply with a new regime is not one I've seen in the last few months, but it doesn't make your case unique.


Your case is not that you didn't have time to comply (although I'd certainly make that point), it is that you already have parking rights under your tenancy and they have no right to interfere with them.


This turns on what parking rights you have in your tenancy: does the tenancy clearly say you can park in allocated spaces? Are these on your drive, or in a car park? Are they allocated spaces, or just a general right to park in the car park?


If no specific rights in your tenancy, then it's slightly more complicated because you have to rely on your landlord's rights and your landlord needs to be co-operative and help you. Hopefully you have specific rights.


I'm assuming you rent privately, or is it housing association?


Assuming you have specific rights, these rights exist contractually between you and the landlord. The landlord obviously owns the rights and has contractually granted them to you.


A third party (the parking co) cannot come along later and impose additional obligations on you in respect of the parking. Eg to display a permit. You already have parking rights. They have no right to try to change them.


If you already have parking rights, granted by Mr Landlord, how can the PPC then sue you? There can be no contract between you and the PPC when there is already one between you and Mr Landlord.


Then you add on the issue about the holiday for good measure:
Even if the PPC had the right to impose new contractual terms on you, such terms have to be communicated to you and proper notice given. You were away for 3 weeks at a time of year when many people are away. Reasonable notice was not therefore given and you can prove you were away and that the terms were not communicated to you.


I'm assuming there is some sort of management company running the estate who chose to bring in the parking company. They owe a duty to the residents and the residents should be piling pressure on them to get the PPC to act reasonably in relation to genuine occupants. The aim of bringing in the PPC was not to target genuine residents, but third parties taking up the parking spaces who have no right to be there. So the PPC should be made to do this job, and not allowed to target residents.


The MC will probably say that under the leasehold terms (assuming your landlord has a leasehold not a freehold) they are entitled to introduce new "estate regulations" for the good running of the development and that these include new parking terms. However, as a tenant you would say that these do not bind you. What binds you is whatever is in your tenancy. You have been granted parking rights by your landlord, not the freeholder. The issue of whether the leaseholds permit new regulations about parking is quite complex and depends on the exact wording in the lease itself (not your tenancy, I mean the leasehold document, which will be a lengthy and sometimes hard to follow document, but I don't think you need to concern yourself with it at this stage).


If you want to educate yourself on the issue of new parking regulations being introduced, read hairray's thread, he was a leaseholder not a tenant but the information is all in there.


It is within your rights to tell the MC and the PPC that legally they cannot interfere with your parking rights and nobody can require you to display a permit. Some MCs will co-operate with people "opting out" in relation to their allocated spaces (but they will say that in return you can't complain when you come home to find a stranger parked in your space).


Do not listen to Citizens Advice about parking, they don't know anything about private parking.


After appeals are exhausted (and don't worry about missing IAS appeal, you'd have lost it anyway because they operate a kangaroo court and are not impartial) this forum usually says ignore until you get an LBC. However, where a person has a strong defence I like to write one letter, and then send it every time you hear from them, just saying "I've already explained to you why there is no claim and no money due, and enclose a copy of my original letter dated xxx which I have now sent to you/your client/your client's agents on x occasions". This sets you up for a costs claim should this ever see the light of day in court and makes the PPC look more unreasonable.

pogofish

Post one of the Newbies Sticky covers this completely. Put your ego aside and try reading again.

Coupon-mad

I have not found anything like my situation in the NEWBIES thread.

You are not meant to. No need, it's an IPC firm. All IPC cases are exactly the same:

- no appeal works

- defending a court claim does work in 99% of cases we see on here and on pepipoo forum

Here's someone who recently beat UKCPM, loads of examples like this are on both forums if you search, and we see residential car park defences every week:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=113569

I hope you can advise whether I should wait for the LBCCC and go straight to court

Yes but that's true of all IPC cases anyway, appeal was hopeless.

I spoke with Citizen Advice, their recommendation was either to pay or to wait for the court letter.

CAB are clueless about private parking. You are looking for a next step or body to turn to, that does not exist.

You should be lobbying your Managing Agents to get the PPC kicked out and/or to cancel the unfair PCNs because you were away on holiday and were given no reasonable opportunity to learn about the scam in the car park. And opt out, because you already have a right to park and UKCPM can't offer it again on more onerous terms, especially not in your absence (no contract was ever agreed).

Please read the threads by:

Daniel san

and

hairray

Find them in the members' list; click on their usernames to read their threads/their fight!

Simonas

SORTED.

Coupon-Mad, Loadsofchildren123 and fisherjim thank you for your suggestion to ask for help from the Management Company. They contacted the operator and got the PCN cancelled.

Thank you!

Loadsofchildren123

Fantastic - at least you have a helpful management company.


You now need to plan for how you manage this PPC in future. What if you forget to display your permit one night or if it falls onto the floor? If you have allocated spaces it may be that you can get the management co to agree you can opt out of the parking controls and the permit system. To do this you need to make the point that you have parking rights already and a PPC can't come along and change/interfere with them and ask them if it is possible for you to opt out in relation to your two allocated spaces.

Simonas

I should have done that in the first place. But there was nothing in my tenancy agreement referred to parking or what to do in case I got charged. I only found out about them from you guys. Permits are not a problem since they sit in the permit pocket on the windscreen, so no need to worry about them falling off.

Thanks again for your help!

The_Slithy_Tove

Simonas wrote: »

IPermits are not a problem since they sit in the permit pocket on the windscreen, so no need to worry about them falling off.

A somewhat naive approach I am afraid. One day, you may have a courtesy car and forget to transfer the permit. Or the windscreen may be particularly dirty, making the permit not visible. Or the PPC toerag (or their hired stooge "Norris") will go out on a snowy or frosty day, and declare that the permit was not visible (under snow/frost), and ticket you. That may sound ridiculous, but it happens.

No, time is now to opt yourself out of the scheme. If you could get hold of your landlord's lease, it would go a long way. However, that is often not possible for a tenant.

Fruitcake

As above.

I would cut the permit in half and send it back with a letter that you do not accept their permit scheme as your lease/AST has primacy of contract.
Any attempt to ticket you in your demised space will be deemed harassment.

How are we ever going to get these scams to stop if people cave in and accept a scammer can make up rules to scam them on their own property?

We have helped you, so now we are asking you to help us.

Reject their terms, complain to the MA, and complain to your MP about this unregulated scam.