Occupational Health forcing me to take sick leave

[Deleted User]

Background

I've been with my employer for 9 years. I was in a stressful client facing role until July 2016 when I was admitted to a clinic (not sectioned) with depression and was on sick leave for several months. During that time (October 2016) !my brother committed suicide which delayed my return. I returned in April 2017 but found the job too stressful and had to take sick leave after 5 weeks. I found a new temporary role with the same company and returned in September 2017 on a phased return over 6 months. I have worked since September without any periods of sick leave.

Current situation

I have recently been told that my temporary role cannot be made permanent and so I will have to return to my old role. This has been a shock as, although I knew it was 'temporary', I thought I had a good chance as most secondments where I work turn into permanent jobs. I started feeling hopeless and having suicidal thoughts. Because my psychologist was on a month's leave after her father died I wasn't sure where to turn so I told my manager. She referred me to occupational health. I was initially assessed as fit for work after I said very strongly that I felt sick leave was the wrong way to go as being at home on my own wouldn't help. OH agreed and said it would be counter productive wanted to follow up after a week. I spoke to OH again on Tuesday last week. This time she insisted I take some time out of the business. I said that I had a week's leave w/c 11th but she said she wanted me to be on leave before that for an initial period of 2 weeks.

I saw my consultant psychiatrist on Thursday and she agreed I was fit for work and being off sick would not help me. I want to work and my own specialist thinks I should work but I'm not being listened to.

I have been told by HR to get a note from my GP declaring that I am unfit for work. I said that put me in an odd position as I don't believe I am unfit and surely my GP should make her own assessment anyway.

The other contentious issue is that I'm not getting sick pay. I have exhausted my OSP and SSP entitlements with my last period of sick leave and so the most I can hope for is 50% pay if the Income Protection insurers pay out. I would be eligible for OSP if I worked 3 months without any time off sick. I hadn't quite reached this point so the clock starts again. To make things even worse I have been told that I have to take next week as sick leave and cannot take it as holiday (with full pay). I am concerned that I will lose this holiday as I am already carrying a high holiday balance from last year and there are limits to what can be carried forward.

I believe I am fit for work and I can back that up with a letter from my specialist, however OH haven't asked her for a report. I have seen on the ACAS website that where a employee believes they are fit for work and an employer disagrees, the employee should ask to be suspended on full pay rather than being forced to take sick leave. I'm concerned about the wider implications of this.

Does anyone have any experience with this? Can OH force someone to take sick leave without pay even if they have a 'fit for work' fit note? Can I be forced to cancel my annual leave?

What should I ask my GP to do when I see her on Tuesday? I would need a sick note for an income protection claim but I am fit for work so don't want to ask for a note saying I am not.

Any advice welcome.

custardy

Okay, lets view from the employers side.

They dont have to offer you a role that fits you if they dont have one that fits their needs.
You may have a 'fit' note,but that fitness is measurable against what the business can realistically offer.

however I do agree being off isnt a great help for your personal wellbeing.
You have large accrued holidays due. It might be worth offering to take a chunk of this (rather than just a week) however I would expect the employer to want you back at full fitness/role on return.
When you say cancel our AL,was this week already booked?

TELLIT01

First step is to stop worrying about the effect your absence is having on your colleagues. That is something for the employer to sort out. You worrying isn't going to help them but is likely to make your own condition worse.
Unfortunately, if the only job available is one which you are unable to do there is only likely to be one outcome.

nicechap

Deleted_User wrote: »

Background

I’ve been with my employer for 9 years. I was in a stressful client facing role until July 2016 when I was admitted to a clinic (not sectioned) with depression and was on sick leave for several months. During that time (October 2016) !my brother committed suicide which delayed my return. I returned in April 2017 but found the job too stressful and had to take sick leave after 5 weeks. I found a new temporary role with the same company and returned in September 2017 on a phased return over 6 months. I have worked since September without any periods of sick leave.

Current situation

I have recently been told that my temporary role cannot be made permanent and so I will have to return to my old role. This has been a shock as, although I knew it was ‘temporary’, I thought I had a good chance as most secondments where I work turn into permanent jobs. I started feeling hopeless and having suicidal thoughts. Because my psychologist was on a month’s leave after her father died I wasn’t sure where to turn so I told my manager. She referred me to occupational health. I was initially assessed as fit for work after I said very strongly that I felt sick leave was the wrong way to go as being at home on my own wouldn’t help. OH agreed and said it would be counter productive wanted to follow up after a week. I spoke to OH again on Tuesday last week. This time she insisted I take some time out of the business. I said that I had a week’s leave w/c 11th but she said she wanted me to be on leave before that for an initial period of 2 weeks.

I saw my consultant psychiatrist on Thursday and she agreed I was fit for work and being off sick would not help me. I want to work and my own specialist thinks I should work but I’m not being listened to.

I have been told by HR to get a note from my GP declaring that I am unfit for work. I said that put me in an odd position as I don’t believe I am unfit and surely my GP should make her own assessment anyway.

The other contentious issue is that I’m not getting sick pay. I have exhausted my OSP and SSP entitlements with my last period of sick leave and so the most I can hope for is 50% pay if the Income Protection insurers pay out. I would be eligible for OSP if I worked 3 months without any time off sick. I hadn’t quite reached this point so the clock starts again. To make things even worse I have been told that I have to take next week as sick leave and cannot take it as holiday (with full pay). I am concerned that I will lose this holiday as I am already carrying a high holiday balance from last year and there are limits to what can be carried forward.!

I believe I am fit for work and I can back that up with a letter from my specialist, however OH haven’t asked her for a report. I have seen on the ACAS website that where a employee believes they are fit for work and an employer disagrees, the employee should ask to be suspended on full pay rather than being forced to take sick leave. I’m concerned about the wider implications of this.

Does anyone have any experience with this? Can OH force someone to take sick leave without pay even if they have a ‘fit for work’ fit note? Can I be forced to cancel my annual leave?

What should I ask my GP to do when I see her on Tuesday? I would need a sick note for an income protection claim but I am fit for work so don’t want to ask for a note saying I am not.

Any advice welcome.

Apologies if I've misunderstood the timeline. You've had 9 months off from July 2016, returned for 5 weeks then off for another 4 months and phased return for 6 months. Full time since March in a temporary role that now finishes in Sept. The prospect of returning to your old role has led you to have unhealthy thoughts again.


Occupational Health (I initially read OH as Other Half in the title) say you need an immediate break from work although they agree you are fit for work, as does your psychiatrist. You have lots of annual leave accrued (while you were off sick you were not on annual leave).


Given the amount of time off I can understand how you have used up your sick leave "entitlement" (I don't think that's contentious) but I don't understand who is determining/ demanding you now will be off sick when you have fit notes?


For your own good mental health I would suggest you start looking for a role elsewhere like the temporary one you have. If you know its finishing, now is the time to start making preparations for the future and find something that you can do and enjoy.


Good luck.

custardy

Deleted_User wrote: »

Just to clarify, they have a role for me until the end of September. I have work to do until then and am enjoying the job. I won't have to go back to my old role until October.

Yes annual leave for this week was booked weeks ago as I knew I needed to use some up. They won't let me take annual leave whilst I'm 'sick' so I don't think offering to take a chunk will be acceptable. In any case I have work that needs doing and so don't want to be off now as it would put my colleagues in a difficult situation, having to find someone else to do my work.

Well they are right. You cant be sick,AL & then sick.
Realistically you need to look at the long term prospects at this employer.
If they are closing this role to you and pushing for you to remain sick until fully fit,do you see this being realistic?
I know this is a big question and not exactly a yes/no answer but from what you have posted I think this is the view the employer is taking.

custardy

[QUOTE=Deleted_User;74390761]It’s occupational health who have now said I’m not fit for work. One assessment they said I could stay in work, the following week they changed their mind and decided it was best I take sick leave.

I know I will have to find another job, that’s not the issue right now. The issue is that I’m not being allowed to work when I can and they’re not letting me take annual leave to soften the financial impact of being on sick leave.[/QUOTE]

Just remember who pays OH. Don't for a minute think they are in any way independent.

nicechap

Deleted_User wrote: »

Everything I have read says that I am entitled to take annual leave when on sick leave.

From the ACAS website (won't let me post link)

"Can a worker take annual leave whilst off work sick?
If the worker wishes to do so they can, but equally they can choose not to."

I'm sorry, I don't think you are interpreting that quote correctly and possibly also in isolation. "Can" does not equal "entitled".


Firstly, all annual leave is at the employers determination, so they can choose whether to let you be on annual leave, cancel annual leave (subject to certain rules about notice periods) or tell you when to take your leave.


I know lots of organisations don't work like this, custom & practice means local rules about applying for leave, authorisation, taking so much at a time can all be in play, but that doesn't mean they can be used in the way you are reading it.


Whilst I can appreciate you are concerned about the immediate period, I would suggest you look to the more pressing timescale of Sept when the temporary role ends and you need to find something to replace it.

custardy

Deleted_User wrote: »

I don't think I quite understand what you're asking/saying. It's perfectly realistic for me to be fit enough to return to work and do this role until it ends. There's actually talk of a 6 month extension to the role so I don't think they are wanting me to stay sick long term. I am feeling much better than when I was having suicidal thoughts and just want to get back to normal! I think they are just worried about me and don't want a suicidal person on the premises. Fair enough but I'm in a better frame of mind than a week ago, just need to convinvce OH of that, which i won't have the opportunity to do until the 19th.

Yes the role you are doing now,you can do. Im talking about the role/job you were originally employed to do.

pmduk

Your GP is advising you about your health. Occupational health is primarily there for the benefit of the employer, they want to ensure you are fit for the job you are employed to do.

It's inevitable that on occasions they will disagree.

sangie595

I'm sorry, but I'm in agreement with your employer (who don't have to listen to OH). You have very substantial amounts of time off sick, and you have, right now, told your employer that you are seriously depressed and having suicidal thoughts - on what basis does that make you fit for work? Assuming that you have told your medical advisers the same thing as you told your employer, I am rather shocked that they believe that a workplace is the best place for you. Whilst I do appreciate that being busy might be helpful, simply being told your secondment is coming to an end has been enough to seriously set you back and make you suicidal. What kind of employer wants someone in the workplace who may be a risk to themselves and others? If you were to do something in the workplace, what about the impact that has on your colleagues? Whilst entirely sympathetic about your situation, I don't think you are being realistic or fair here; and whilst I accept that it is hard for you because your entitlement to sick pay is exhausted, I must ask whether you would be fighting so hard to stay in work when you are clearly not well if it hadn't? Your suggestion that you only need a few more months until your OSP kicks in again suggests not.

I really think that you need to have a serious think about your future and what you want from it, and to be able to have that conversation with your employer. If you have income protection, does that also mean that you may have other options, such as taking ill health retirement? Are you realistically ever going to feel that you can return to your normal employment?

You have been in this secondment for a long time - nine months. And whilst I understand that you may have hoped for it to continue, you didn't know it wouldn't, and it doesn't appear that you've used that time to consider the future, and nor are you well enough to return to your normal position. So I think that's what you need to do now. Regardless of the trigger for this trail of events, the employer is only going to be able to go so far, and they are only expected to do what is reasonable. They've supported you for two years in this situation, and whilst it's not a race to the bottom, very few employers go that far. I suspect that you may be public sector from your description, and even in the public sector it's very hard to get two years support from employers these days. I say that with experience of many public sector employers now terminating staff after a year on sick leave.

So I think this is less about what you think are entitled to - and I seriously don't think this is grounds for a medical suspension given that you have, effectively, said that you are considering suicide, which is "ill" in anyone's book - and more about what your future realistically holds and how you discuss that with your employer. Getting into a fight about insisting on them paying you, which I doubt would succeed at a tribunal anyway, is likely to annoy them - and given they've been supportive so far I would suggest you might try to keep them on side.

And I appreciate that you say you now feel better - even if that is true, would you believe yourself?! A week ago they were worried enough about what you said to be concerned your would kill yourself, but now you are better.... No, that's not likely to be credible, and I don't blame them for doubting it. In their position, so would I.

I think you need to talk. But first you need to know what you want to say and what toy think about what the future holds. Do you have a union rep?

custardy

Deleted_User wrote: »

Okay, so what happens when they disagree? Who takes priority? And what should happen whilst it is all being decided (in terms of pay)?

One doesnt impact the other. The GP is interested in your health.
OH relates to legal responsibilities.
Your GP has no input or control over aspects such as wages.

Edit:

Deleted_User wrote: »

Okay, the annual leave point is annoying but it's probably not the most important point. I was told by a previous HR person during my previous sickness that I could take annual leave whilst off sick. So you're saying that was because it was at their discretion to allow it and now they have decided not to allow it? They don't have to be consistent (?). Hopefully you can understand why I'm confused.

Does anyone have any experience in terms of the advice from OH being contradictory to the advice from my consultant/GP? Can they force someone to take sick leave who considers themselves fit for work? Shouldn't they give me paid leave? I've had a lot of sick leave (as you can see) and so don't want any more on my record. I had a very good run from September until now and so it's frustrating to ruin it.

As I said,forget your GP and work. The GP has no bearing outwith the best course for your health & wellbeing.
OH are just like HR,looking out for the employer first and foremost.