Additional day added to original quote by tradesman

dunroving

I'm just wondering, does anyone have experience of a tradesperson charging lower than the estimate because the job ended up being much easier than expected?

I have great respect for people running their own business so I'm not asking this to provoke a rant. I'm just curious.

Doozergirl

Pdbaggett wrote: »

It's really not as simple as that at all, I certainly value the work of trades people, my close friend is a heating enginner, one is a mechanical engineer and my father who retired this year was an electrician since leaving school.

I also don't begrudge people a fair wage, hell I spent 8 year slogging my guts out in a supermarket bakery for minimum wage after uni so I know how it feels to be over worked and under appreciated. But I'll still stand to the point when someone is quoting me into the thousands of pounds just for labour of re fitting a washroom or over a thousand to build decking in the garden I personally don't see it as justified, once again taking my location into consideration.

Someone is coming this week to paint the Sofits and other wooden features on my house, he turned up when he said and quoted fairly and I agreed straight away. Which is how it should work he's well recommend and I'll leave him to his own devices and pay his on a satisfactory job. It's not rocket science.

There's a fine line between people under valueing work and people over valueing their own.

No one is overvaluing their work when there is a going rate and people are prepared to pay it.

House prices don't dictate the value of the labour cost to build them. In areas of the North West it is perfectly common to see the rebuild cost for insurance purposes outstrip the value of the house. People don't go into trades there because literally no one values it, hence places like Blackpool where it's a wonder that half the houses stand up, they way they've been bashed around with no reference to building control and there are people living in houses you wouldn't use to house your dog.

I understand your desire to get best value when the investment in labour isn't seen as a wise one if you're concentrating on house value, or that it's costing more to fit the sink than the sink and chipboard unit cost you, but it doesn't devalue the years' practice of learning a trade.

You've done a good job on your house, it looks very neat but you're not right on the quality of your job being as good as or better. My professional job is better and it will last longer. I feel like I'm dying of pleurisy right now but I will go and take photos of the kitchen and the cloakroom (which was created from scratch from an area of hallway by diverting the stairs) to show you what around £20 an hour does buy in terms of quality of fitting, bearing in mind that the design element also holds value and I am able to do that myself, otherwise I'd have to pay someone for that too.

No insult intended, but the same person qualified to do your simple turnaround of a toilet pan and basin with all the work housed in an ultimately temporary chipboard box from a generic DIY outlet is going to be the same person qualified to do a proper job of making a cloakroom or kitchen part of the lasting fabric of the building. That is where their value is and that is where the job satisfaction is.

Put value in the longevity of what decent labour provides. We do live in a throwaway society full of chipboard boxes and superfluous blue LED lighting. It's taken me long enough to learn but I have decided that I will never put another piece of chipboard in my house again.

Pdbaggett

Great and how exactly would a pro have installed my washroom or kitchen better or with more quality if I instructed them to use the same materials I've used ?

I have a list as long as my arm from friends and relatives who have had "pros" in to do various bits and the work has been shoddy at best, they want to be in out as fast as possible and quality seems to be the least of their concerns.

Design is different I like the choices I've made you obviously don't but that's down to taste, I fail to see how a pro would have done anything better.

Doozergirl

Professionals are better qualified than just doing what you're asking of them. If you place a trademan's value agains the value of a cheap house or your basin cabinet, you won't see their value. If people locally to you do the same then there is no demand for good people. They will work elsewhere rather than work for less. The bad ones are the ones that will work for less because they aren't worth the rate.

The same carpenter that pieces Howdens kitchen units gets paid the same rate to use his brain and create things from raw materials. Granted, it takes longer to bespoke build a washroom in the same layout as yours, but the hourly rate is the same - slightly more than £20 an hour. The upshot is a cloakroom that remains in great condition for longer.

If there is a national shortage of good tradesmen, which there is, what would they choose to do? Quibble with someone over half a day's pay for a couple of hours work or do something exciting that takes longer because their skill is appreciated?

The raw building materials for the cloakroom probably cost less than your cabinet but the labour takes time. Timeless, more water resistant, possible to be repaired and redecorated it will be there a lot longer than yours. It is a professional job. I don't recognise your bodgers, I've never had one work for us.

I won't be replacing any of these fittings out of need in a very, very long time. If your price is your own time and a £60 basin then that's what it is, but don't belittle people who do good work for a good price.

This conversation isn't about the materials, it's about the hourly rate. Hourly rate for the carpenter for this kitchen, cloakroom, parquet flooring, skirting, cabinetry and the studwork to sit the kitchen wall perfectly flush with the units is the same as it would be for your kitchen. They may not do anything differently with your materials, but it's basic. It doesn't make the value of the labour any less though, you just gave them a basic job.

I don't mind what you've done. You've used your skill and budget to create something that you like and it's admirable because you've learned something that isn't your day job. If you were being paid for it at your hourly rate then it would cost a small fortune, I imagine.

https://imgur.com/gallery/izJsRYc

Doozergirl

dunroving wrote: »

I'm just wondering, does anyone have experience of a tradesperson charging lower than the estimate because the job ended up being much easier than expected?

I have great respect for people running their own business so I'm not asking this to provoke a rant. I'm just curious.

It always goes over. It's renovation. The more comprehensive the job, the more spectacular the surprise. We still can't anticipate much when I house goes back to brick.

I charged someone less for their extension than estimate for their extension recently. The footings were an absolute nightmare so I reined back thinking we were going to shoot over. I put in extra time to find some bargains, she was exceptionally easy to deal with and we ended up coming in under.

She trusted me with an estimate and free rein on her house, I thanked her with a smaller invoice. There were no real compromises.

Our gas engineer just knocked £200 off someone's bill because the boiler replacement was easier than he thought.

Pdbaggett

Nice kitchen/washroom; not to my taste of course, obviously the materials, fixtures and fittings probably cost 10 times more than the ones I used.

Still don't see from the pictures how your finish and quality of work is particularly better than mine and I also still fail to see how hiring someone to do mine would have gave me a better finish than what I achieved other than "because they are professionals so it should mean that by default".

Doozergirl

genau wrote: »

Does this apply to all types of houses or mainly particular styles such as low priced terraces?
Is this one of the reasons that you can sometimes see roads where many of the houses have been abandoned in particular locations?

Absolutely. The price of renovation far exceeds the value, sadly.

Furts

Doozergirl wrote: »

Professionals are better qualified than just doing what you're asking of them. If you place a trademan's value agains the value of a cheap house or your basin cabinet, you won't see their value. If people locally to you do the same then there is no demand for good people. They will work elsewhere rather than work for less. The bad ones are the ones that will work for less because they aren't worth the rate.

The same carpenter that pieces Howdens kitchen units gets paid the same rate to use his brain and create things from raw materials. Granted, it takes longer to bespoke build a washroom in the same layout as yours, but the hourly rate is the same - slightly more than £20 an hour. The upshot is a cloakroom that remains in great condition for longer.

If there is a national shortage of good tradesmen, which there is, what would they choose to do? Quibble with someone over half a day's pay for a couple of hours work or do something exciting that takes longer because their skill is appreciated?

The raw building materials for the cloakroom probably cost less than your cabinet but the labour takes time. Timeless, more water resistant, possible to be repaired and redecorated it will be there a lot longer than yours. It is a professional job. I don't recognise your bodgers, I've never had one work for us.

I won't be replacing any of these fittings out of need in a very, very long time. If your price is your own time and a £60 basin then that's what it is, but don't belittle people who do good work for a good price.

This conversation isn't about the materials, it's about the hourly rate. Hourly rate for the carpenter for this kitchen, cloakroom, parquet flooring, skirting, cabinetry and the studwork to sit the kitchen wall perfectly flush with the units is the same as it would be for your kitchen. They may not do anything differently with your materials, but it's basic. It doesn't make the value of the labour any less though, you just gave them a basic job.

I don't mind what you've done. You've used your skill and budget to create something that you like and it's admirable because you've learned something that isn't your day job. If you were being paid for it at your hourly rate then it would cost a small fortune, I imagine.

https://imgur.com/gallery/izJsRYc

I am not posting pictures of my home - this is an anonymous forum and I respect privacy. Equally my home is built to my tastes, which other people could rightly consider poor taste. So no point posting pictures and then receive ridicule! However I am 100% backing Doozergirl.

No doubt in a similar vain to Doozergirl, my home has materials, workmanship and detailing which is in a different league to adjacent homes and a different league to the norm. I appreciate this and I gain pleasure from this. However there is an enormous but ... there is no way I could sell my home for anything like the real value of the design, detailing, eco standards, materials and workmanship.

Why? Because 95% of people today would not be capable of understanding and valueing what has gone into this home.

The result? My home would be valued as if it were made of mdf, chipboard, lightweight partitions, dry lining, I joists and such like. Basically a box standard modern, cheap, poorly built home.

The upshot? I am happy to remain in the home for the rest of my days, and it would be folly to sell to the home anyway.

Why? People today do not understand quality. People today do not appreciate quality. People do not value quality.

Doozergirl

Pdbaggett wrote: »

Nice kitchen/washroom; not to my taste of course, obviously the materials, fixtures and fittings probably cost 10 times more than the ones I used.

Hmm. Much of it is called workmanship. How you put things together.

Pdbaggett

AHH "workmanship" and how things are put toghther, so that's why a pro would have done a better than me. And obviously my workmanship would be subpar to any other "pro" based purely on the fact he's a pro, without any actual proof of course or scrutiny up close.

Well I think I'll bow out of this thread at this point seems to be going around in circles.