Who DOES legally own the Party Wall?

Tim1965

Hi to anyone taking the trouble to read this.:)

My elderly uncle's neighbours are currently in the throws to a loft conversion:o. Fortunately, uncle hasn't suffered too much (we are counting our blessings on that one), however, he is getting just a little "bit hot under the collar" about what seems to be going on on his roof...:eek:

Uncle signed the PWA as he has a good relationship with neighbours. He discussed plans with them which uncle felt were agreeable, so felt there was no problem there.

Prior to the arrival of the builders, uncle took the precaution of taking many pictures of his house, internally and externally, in particular the roof which are finely/well detailed.

Between his house and next door, on the roof edge/roofline were two flu vent tiles prominently protruding, one belonging to him and then the other to his neighbour. I would imagine that the flu vents between the two properties were separated by the actual party wall itself. There was a layer of tiles covering the party wall between these two flu vents at a distance of around six to eight inches. Now with the development of the full width dormer roof by his neighbour, the neighbour's vent has been removed completely, just leaving the edge of uncle's flu/vent on the roof ridge as if in mid air...

Uncle has just recently read that the party wall is not owned jointly in common ever since the 1925 Law of Property Act, so that each neighbour legally owns only HALF and that no-one must encroach outside the line of curtilage.

Can someone please advise what uncle's next step should be? He is planning to sell when the market picks up and move closer to my wife and I. He has a fairly good relationship with these neighbours with no disputes etc, so you can probably guess how he is feeling.

Cheers for any advice whatsoever!:beer:

buggy_boy

Tim1965 wrote: »

Hi to anyone taking the trouble to read this.:)

My elderly uncle's neighbours are currently in the throws to a loft conversion:o. Fortunately, uncle hasn't suffered too much (we are counting our blessings on that one), however, he is getting just a little "bit hot under the collar" about what seems to be going on on his roof...:eek:

Uncle signed the PWA as he has a good relationship with neighbours. He discussed plans with them which uncle felt were agreeable, so felt there was no problem there.

Prior to the arrival of the builders, uncle took the precaution of taking many pictures of his house, internally and externally, in particular the roof which are finely/well detailed.

Between his house and next door, on the roof edge/roofline were two flu vent tiles prominently protruding, one belonging to him and then the other to his neighbour. I would imagine that the flu vents between the two properties were separated by the actual party wall itself. There was a layer of tiles covering the party wall between these two flu vents at a distance of around six to eight inches. Now with the development of the full width dormer roof by his neighbour, the neighbour's vent has been removed completely, just leaving the edge of uncle's flu/vent on the roof ridge as if in mid air...

Uncle has just recently read that the party wall is not owned jointly in common ever since the 1925 Law of Property Act, so that each neighbour legally owns only HALF and that no-one must encroach outside the line of curtilage.

Can someone please advise what uncle's next step should be? He is planning to sell when the market picks up and move closer to my wife and I. He has a fairly good relationship with these neighbours with no disputes etc, so you can probably guess how he is feeling.

Cheers for any advice whatsoever!:beer:

Surely first port of call would be to speak to the neighbours and discuss his concerns, hopefully given the two parties are amicable and he has been helpful a resolution can be found.

Tim1965

Thanks for that,
A legal position is sought firstly.

pinklady21

Maybe see a lawyer?

G_M

No.


Employ a Party Wall surveyor.


(or as advised above,speak to neighbour)

Doozergirl

You've been here asking before.

If your uncle didn't feel comfortable assenting to the notice then a party wall surveyor should have been appointed. There's no point signing a document and then using the internet to unpick fairly irrelevant questions that could have been answered straight by a PWS and condition assessed, drawings produced and method statements etc approved properly using experience. It also makes sure that future building work is possible by both parties without having to cause unecessary damage to previous extensions.

When the job is finished, it's finished. As long as your uncle's wall is intact then this party wall agreement bears no relation to what happens when he sells. No one asks questions about next door and party wall agreements are only in place for the duration of works, not beyond them. The paperwork isn't produced by either party during a sale.

As for boundaries - fact is, the party wall affords support and protection to both parties. If a steel has to be inserted then it *must* have a correct bearing into the party wall if it needs to go there. It's about safety, not measuring an invisible line to demark ownership halfway across an individual brick, which is exactly what would happen if the wall is 9 inches, which they often are.

Who owns it is a pointless thing to consider. Both parties need all of the wall to keep the house standing. Your uncle would be a bit upset if next door decided to demolish their house and try to cut half the party wall away! Ditto, he would be upset if somethig collapsed because it wasn't inserted far enough into the wall.

Professionally assessed, before the event would have answered every single question your uncle has. Now it's just time to stop googling and let people get on with it.

Tim1965

Hi Doozergirl and once again thanks for your very excellent advice which is helpful and gratefully received. :A

You are not only offering advice to us, but also others caught up in the same predicament too.:(

As you so sensibly point out in your post that this could have been averted if my uncle had dissented in the first place and used the services of a shared party wall surveyor with his neighbours in the first place.:T:T:T

I would personally recommend people to do this to iron out any issues beforehand, no matter how well they may get on with their neighbours.

The problem has since arisen as my uncle has subsequently looked at and compared other dormer extensions which haven't used/utilised the party wall and how close his neighbours have now come onto the shared party wall - he obviously doesn't want his roof damaged.

There appears to be varying differences with some builders leaving space between the party wall and the dormer cheek(?) and others building right upon it.

As you point out, it is better structurally for the building if the dormer cheek is constructed upon it.:beer:

The situation has now changed from my first post in as much as my uncle is concerned about any encroachment of flashing/guttering or roofing materials projecting over his side of the boundary and any detrimental effect of rainwater dripping down from or splashing onto the dormer side and channeling onto his roof with the possibility of any incurred leaks.

I have advised him to have a word with his neighbours about this issue to alleviate his concerns.

Of course, all of this would have been addressed beforehand if he had dissented.:(

Doozergirl

"encroaching" makes perfect sense when it comes to the party wall.

Presuming that these are regularly terraced houses effectively sharing one roof, the new wall becomes the party wall. The flashing on your uncle's side is his flashing, not the neighbours'.

In future, if someone decides to extend the loft on your uncle's house, they peel off the covering of the neighbour's dormer and use it as the party wall. They then again ultimately share the same roof again, which is much more beneficial to both houses in the long term than trying to step out each house.

Much of the purpose of the PWA is to allow neighbours to continue to share the wall, including by extension, which will often affect the neighbouring house. The purpose of the PWA is also to ensure everything gets put back properly too.

If you step out (which is most people's thinking by the way) you create more joints in both roofs to potentially fail, which of course they will over the passage of time. Small gaps between houses create an environment for damp are difficult to get to for maintenance.

If a dormer is that large, then it would make best sense to extend the party wall up in brick, but a PWS would have told both parties that.

stevenway

Steve the Party Wall Surveyor here.

This is a question of rights rather than ownership. The Party wall Act grants a right to raise the party wall to its full width, BUT there is no right to oversail the neighbours face of that wall with fascias, gutters, edge trims or even render. If that happens it is a trespass that can be actioned. When it is raised as a party wall the other neighbour will have a future right to use the wall [subject to the provision of the party wall act].